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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

999 replies

Wacamole · 01/04/2021 10:13

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

OP posts:
goodbyestranger · 11/04/2021 19:59

Sure opoponax. Completely accept that, obviously.

goodbyestranger · 11/04/2021 20:00

Being a Master of The Universe left me cold though - so horses for courses :)

Piggywaspushed · 11/04/2021 20:03

I ma not sure the losers are ex polys though OP. I think it may well be unis like Keele, Hull, Bradford that are losing this battle. The ex polys/whatever have gone above them in popularity, location for some and also for many degrees league table positions and quality of offering.

opoponax · 11/04/2021 20:03

I agree with a lot of what you are saying Piggy but I have to say that the medical school application advice my DS has had through his state (albeit grammar) school has been excellent and in my opinion much better informed than some of my friends' DC in well-regarded indies.

goodbyestranger · 11/04/2021 20:03

(Investment (aka merchant) banking. What's astonishing is that I was never actually sacked).

MiniMaxi · 11/04/2021 20:05

This is a long time ago, but my school discouraged me from applying to Oxbridge because they didn't think I'd get straight A's. We had to fight them to allow me to apply and get a reference from them or whatever.

I ended up with AAB, but got in despite having missed my AAA offer. Had a great time.

She should apply regardless, if she wants to. Cambridge can advise on the maths thing.

Piggywaspushed · 11/04/2021 20:06

Oh well that's good to hear op. I don't want to single out grammars as I am aware they get woeful funding but I do suspect their UCAS advice is better informed than a middling- good comprehensive where the focus is mainly on younger years , Gatsby Benchmarks and just getting the sodding personal statements and references done. My schools is shit at this. I have said this before on MN. It isn't an identified priority and ofsted don't even really look.

The weaker comps on the various lists, especially in London then get better again because of targeting and enhance funding if in London.

The great hole in the UK is Lincolnshire!

goodbyestranger · 11/04/2021 20:08

Fair point Piggy although it's fair to say that despite being superselective, the range of ability (never mind interests) is actually very broad. That's partly to do with our geographical area. If you look at destinations and degree subject for say Tiffin or QEB, the range is far narrower - mostly to do with parental expectations/ aspirations/ background.

goodbyestranger · 11/04/2021 20:10

I'm trailing rather in responding to your posts Piggy!

Wacamole · 11/04/2021 20:23

@Piggywaspushed

I ma not sure the losers are ex polys though OP. I think it may well be unis like Keele, Hull, Bradford that are losing this battle. The ex polys/whatever have gone above them in popularity, location for some and also for many degrees league table positions and quality of offering.
That's very interesting. What is it they are doing wrong? Keele and Hull (was Hull always a uni??) and in particular, Bradford I'm not so surprised. I visited a cousin there yrs ago and it was just awful! I don't know what its academics are like though.
OP posts:
Piggywaspushed · 11/04/2021 20:36

Yes, Hull was always a uni! Well, since some sort of charter in 1954 anyway.

Hull ahs had some financial problems, image problems and was the butt of a famous Blackadder joke. But it used to be highly regarded for English, history and languages and does now have a medical school.

Both Keele and Hull have location problems...

Philip Larkin was Hull's librarian and it is actually a really attractive campus uni : it has just faded away. All the kids I teach would rather spend 3 years in Nottingham at NTU than in Hull (unless they want to do politics)

Keele pioneered joint honours as a thing and now everywhere does them. It seems to be a big clearing uni now. Scores v highly for student satisfaction though.

Wacamole · 11/04/2021 20:49

Have to admit, first time I heard of Hull was on MN and I don't know anything about the 'Blackadder' joke so will look that up. All sounds very unfortunate. Is there any obvious reason why Bradford seems to have such a poor reputation?

OP posts:
Piggywaspushed · 11/04/2021 20:58

Gavin Williamson went there Grin ?

I was thinking about UC. I reckon thirty years ago it used to have a much wider range of institutions on it. I distinctly remember only having heard of Trent Poly and Middlesex because of UC.

sandybayley · 11/04/2021 20:59

Gavin Williamson went to Bradford. Not sure we can blame Bradford for Gavin Williamson though...

Wacamole · 11/04/2021 21:08

My relative that went to Bradford couldn’t get a job for yrs after graduating (Structural engineering) he had to retrain in the end, their GF who also graduated from there with a first couldn’t get a job.L (both graduated early 90s) That’s my only experience of it.

OP posts:
ofteninaspin · 11/04/2021 21:12

I went to Hull University in the late 80s. It had a fab music scene (Everything but the Girl (both Tracy Thorn and husband Ben are English grads) ,The House Martins, Fine Young Cannibals). Good reputation for Politics, History, MFL, Drama and English (Jenni Murray is a Drama/French grad.)
The campus was lovely, Halls were traditional and meals were formal. I had a great time and many of my peers have become successful in corporate life and elsewhere.

KingscoteStaff · 11/04/2021 21:18

Marianne Elliott, Martin Lowe, Rosie Millard, Robert Delamere and Ben Kellett (sorry about Mrs Brown’s Boys...) all did Drama at Hull.

cantkeepawayforever · 11/04/2021 21:20

IIRC, Hull also had a good reputation for theatre-type degrees - certainly the writer / director I knew, who did their MA there, has done well.

cantkeepawayforever · 11/04/2021 21:23

Xpost with Kingscote.

mids2019 · 11/04/2021 21:59

My cousin did a law degree at Preston poly 30 years ago... never got a job at a solicitors. Now works in IT. I think it was possibly 3 years that could have been better spent.

I think a deep dive into law degree employability would be recommended.

I would think law is quite a conservative profession when it comes to institution.

Piggywaspushed · 11/04/2021 22:05

Lots of politicians from Hull, too.

Did you know those Halls closed down last year often? Nice new on campus accommodation now.

ofteninaspin · 11/04/2021 22:27

@Piggywaspushed, I was aware Thwaite Hall had closed. It was all girls and fully catered when I was there. I had a large room overlooking the botanical gardens and shared a bathroom that had an enormous claw foot roll top bath.

sandybayley · 11/04/2021 22:36

Hull has an excellent reputation for politics. Really good.

Piggywaspushed · 11/04/2021 22:36

The whole lot over at Cottingham have gone. All on campus now.

Phphion · 11/04/2021 22:44

Bradford is an interesting case because they essentially took a very noble gamble that didn't pay off.

I'm not sure how long ago it was now, maybe 20 years ago or longer, they decided to make it their explicit mission to basically make up for the 'failures' of the school system.

What they wanted to do was to find and educate young people who were (or who had the capacity to be) academically clever but who had been let down by poor teaching and poor advice at school. These young people would come to Bradford from around the country and be taught in a way that was academically rigorous and challenging, helping them to rise up and access the kind of opportunities their innate cleverness entitled them to.

They positioned themselves as being different to the elitist universities who were uninterested in potential or the difficulties a student might have faced, and also different to the former-polys that were for practically-inclined and local students of no particular academic potential.

Alongside this, Bradford was to imbue its students with a sense of social and civic responsibility. Essentially these students were to be seeds or catalysts for educational development in more deprived communities. They would not only be examples, but would actively engage to bring about improvement in their home communities.

In reality this proved to be rather doomed for different reasons. Bradford was already kind of on the slide at that point anyway, so in a lot of respects this was something of a hit-and-hope strategy from the outset.

There were also a lot of disagreements within the university about this mission and whether it would stop Bradford's decline that limited how well they were able to really get the message out about their purpose and aspirations.

Identifying students with potential was difficult, as was attracting them to Bradford, and Bradford needed to find a lot of them as it was a university, not some sort of small niche college more suited to this kind of social experiment. In reality, they were never really able to develop a kind of critical mass of these students or build on their reputation to attract the do-gooding middle classes with better grades to study alongside them. This also made teaching difficult.

Their approach killed them in the university rankings which were becoming more prevalant at the time and which focussed heavily on entry tariff points. The rankings didn't care that Bradford was taking students with 3 Cs who could, under other circumstances, have got 3 As. They only cared that Bradford's students had 3 Cs and ranked Bradford accordingly. Consequently Bradford's poor ranking stopped them attracting both the students with potential and the middle students they had previously attracted and they basically just spiralled further and further down the rankings, being passed by many of the former-polys who were attempting to break free of their technical college image and market themselves as 'proper' academic institutions.

They also suffer, like Hull and Keele, from being a non-RG pre-92 at a time when RG/non-RG has started to matter more than the pre/post 92 designation and being in a place that is not particularly attractive to out-of-area students but having a relatively small pool of very local students for whom they are the nearest university.