To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

[Wacamole]

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

mids2019 I think it's less about 'conservatism' and more about law at the sharp end requiring sharp minds. And the top unis tend to produce sharp minds. Percy and Irma have already made the point.

That's a sad story Pphion. Gavin W must have been a fish out of water at that university with his ideals, such as they are...

I think it would have been after Gavin W's time @Piggywaspushed. Maybe he drove them to it!

That’s a a very sad account of Bradford university Phpion, I’m guessing you work closely with them in some capacity as that is information most people won’t know? It’s all a bit of mess it seems.

So interesting to hear about Hull! I did English there in the 80s (waves at @ofteninaspin ). I was just thinking the other day that I don't know a single kid these days who has applied there, and was wondering why. It seemed fab there in the 80s and I'm sure I didn't imagine its good reputation! My two DSs now tease me for having a degree from there!

No, @Wacamole, I have no connection to Bradford.

About 15 years ago, I did some research on the metrics underpinning ranking and grouping of universities and why they vary so much. Bradford was one of the universities who called me up to 'discuss' it. At that point they had already fallen quite far down the rankings and really objected to how / which metrics were used.

There was a Welsh university with a similar but less extreme story, but I don't remember who they were, maybe Bangor or Aberystwyth?

Three of my colleagues went to Hull. We have sent maybe 4 students there in the last 5 years : Politics, history, languages. That's about the same as Manchester and more than Liverpool.

I know a lovely young man who went to Hull and did environmental engineering (I think). A very good friend studied French and Italian there in the early 80s, and met her PhD studying husband to be there. They all 'did well' in MN parlance

Also the magnificent Tracey Thorne studied there.

How (why?!) do I know these things?

Hull had a very vibrant 'scene' in the 80s and has a historic Victorian city centre and lots of culture. There was/is also John Godber and Hull Truck Theatre. It was City of Culture quite recently. I'm sad to hear or the uni's demise. Piggy - what were the 'financial issues' you mentioned??

@kitnkaboodle DH also studied English at Hull (early 90s for him). He was in Cleminson Hall. I studied there too (completely different subject) and lived in a student house in Cranbrook Avenue. There were 9 of us in the house, a cleaner 4 days a week, all for the price of £16 a week... those were the days!

We had a great time at Hull. DH even had Maureen Lipman give the address/talk at his graduation.

Oh @Skerryberry what a blast from the past! I lived at The Lawns in Cottingham in the first year (now gone, I've just learned 😯) then grotty house share (no cleaner!) near Pearson (??) Park for a similar rent! Very happy times and a great academic environment then.

I think that universities fall foul of fashion! I don’t know a single DC who chose Hull recently. None of my friends went there either. Just a bit too geographically remote from the SE perhaps? Ditto Keele and a few others.

I also strongly refute the idea that Warwick isn’t top 10 for Engineering. It is in other tanks and is firmly top 10 overall. Their maths and engineering departments are very strong. It’s always been a leader in Automotive engineering. DH recruits civil and structural engineers. Warwick is considered a top degree by employers.

As for a structural engineering grad (should have not specialised so early) who cannot get a job - words fail me. Did they try very hard? I think not. However, this is where advice comes in. Civil Engineering with Structural engineering is the broader degree allowing for specialisation later.

I also don’t recognise the idea that ex polys shouldn’t offer “academic” courses. Engineering is academic. The polys often offered a valuable year with an employer. The courses are not seen as second best by employers and often turn out very employable young people. They also mostly go on to work as engineers. All too often grads from Oxbridge, Warwick, Bristol etc go into City jobs and don’t become engineers at all! The ex polys produce the workers!

Some academic courses are perhaps not best taught at polys. Law is one. When I was at school, the newer universities were really popular. Eg Kent (one school friend became an ambassador), Essex, Sussex, etc. They were considered equivalent to Liverpool or Sheffield for example. There were far fewer grads then though so the polys were only on the radar for the 2 A level folk. Only around half of my grammar school cohort went to university because polys and teacher training colleges were lesser institutions.

As for a structural engineering grad (should have not specialised so early) who cannot get a job - words fail me. Did they try very hard? I think not

Ooh! It’s terribly hasty to assume they didn’t try very hard, not knowing anything about them or their circumstances at the time. I can assure you they worked their socks off! with the little resources they had at the time. This was no ordinary graduate! they had fought to even do the degree in the first place. Very driven, but it just wasn’t to be.
I do strongly agree that they could have done with some very good advice, unfortunately there seemed to be none at the time. No schools careers advice, and the university careers didn’t help much either. These were the days before the internet!
They retrained anyway and have gone on to be very successful as expected.

I do agree about fashions. When I was applying in the 80s Manchester was quite the thing, but I never hear of anyone applying there now, and also Sussex. What happened to Sussex?! I think there was a North is Trendy thing going on in the 90s, but now only Radio 6 presenters dream of that era.

St Andrews is awfully popular now, but it just wasn’t on my radar - the only thing I knew about it was right at the end of the Mallory Towers series when they were all shouting, “See you at St Andrews!!!” and I remember having no clue what they were on about.

Coming back to careers and degrees, I am a bit dismayed at all the young people heading off to university to do “journalism”. Like those who think law is Suits, many people imagine they’re going to be in a news room, or working on a fashion magazine. This industry is in crisis, with most content now free, and the state of local papers is parlous.

I heard a woman on Woman’s Hour a while ago bemoaning the woeful advice in sixth forms. She was speaking to girls who wanted to do journalism degrees and work on Vogue etc. “Do you buy glossy magazines or read The Times? she asked. And there’s your answer. You need to health check your career. Although that is pretty difficult given the recent pace of change.

On line journalism is booming though. Podcasts & social media articles on news topics are very popular amongst the younger generation. Print journalism is probably on its last legs (sad as I used to work for a magazine company and loved it). But on line is a real growth area (my old colleagues all having to learn new skills).

But hardly anyone is getting paid!

Well DH has been recruiting civil and structural engineers for 40 years. For consultancy work. There is a shortage. Always has been. He also has offices in Yorkshire. I am very, very surprised an engineering grad could not get a job. Sgtructures is more specialised but even so, it is extraordinary tghat there was no employment in this field. Therefore I do question what was going on. Something does not ring true.

On-line journalism pays very poorly. It is rarely a "job" as we older people would understand it. Lots of freelance and it is precarious. The top journalists are RG and very many are Oxbridge. They often have specialist subjects and too many are related to other people in powerful roles. They do a journalism masters after their first degree.

@IrmaFayLear You’ve raised a good point I’ve been mulling over in the last week. A friend’s DD is doing exactly this, i.e online journalism, fresh grad. And all that, has setup in such a way you have to pay to access all their articles online. I get regular summaries or just the highlights. It doesn’t seem to be working! And I’ve been privately wondering about why they are not writing for magazines/journals etc instead.
Seems the new journalism means getting the information out there fast and to a wide audience but little pay financially for the journalist.

Manchester is still very popular by the way. It is a huge university. Sussex still gets plenty of grads too. And Surrey.

I think the journalism debate shows ewxactly what good advice really means. Is is just doing a bit of freelance or do you want a top flight career? If the latter, do you know how hard that is to achieve? It is rarely accessed by a journalism first degree.

Weird as I know 2 podcasters who are earning very well. At 23. They are currently number 6 on apple downloads (so I'm told - not my thing). I do not understand how it works (& I don't advise on journalism as I do STEM). Both did Law at Uni, but decided they hated it.
Also have ex student working for the Spectator and another for NYTimes. They seem to be being paid ?

Percy I don’t know why you are adamant someone being unemployed after graduation cannot be true just because your DH works in recruitment. You know nothing about the persons situation I spoke of and your DH being in recruitment for 40yrs is irrelevant. Sometimes people are just unlucky and like I said, could have done with some much needed advice so there’s a lot of background information you are not privy to. Last but not the least, I don’t appreciate being called a liar by you so please stop.

Most annoying ex student is the one earning a fortune (millions) gaming. He is one of the top gamers apparently and gets paid stupid money by games companies and in competitions. He's annoying as so many students know about him and so it's impossible to say 'you can't make money out of gaming'. So many think they'll be the next him - we tell them it's unlikely, unusual, v lucky. But they say why can't it be them too.
Shows that new industries are opening up all the time and I can't give careers advice about all of them as I don't understand them. We are trying to keep up but I'm old.

No he’s doesn’t work in recruitment! He was the founder of an engineering consultancy. He employs engineers! He does engineering!

There is no current or past structural engineering degree listed at Bradford by the EC. They approve degrees that are suitable for future career progression. If this was the degree the young men took, it might have been unrecognised. Hence the issue. The MEng and BEng Civil and Structural are recognised.