Medicine: what’s better, Oxford or Cambridge?

[AsPerMyLastEmail]

DS wants to study medicine. For certain reasons beyond academics & reputation, he and I think Oxford or Cambridge may be a good fit for him. He’s Year 11 now so will be doing proper research nearer the time. Out of idle curiosity, I’d appreciate thoughts on which of the two is better for medicine. With the obvious caveat that ‘better’ is partly subjective.

It seems hard for some posters to realise that being very, very good at science is far from always being allied to a lack of social skills or other attributes required of a doctor

To be more specific orangenasturtium, I thought this particular sentence needed correction, which it didn't (as I realised when another poster copied it themselves). Just to make it easier for MN to locate if you wish to raise a query :)

And having skipped back through the thread that seems to be the only deletion....

Nobody seems to have answered the question about numbers this year. The correct figure is that applications are up 21%, not merely 6%.

Applications to Oxford are up dramatically I believe (DS not applying to Oxbridge but so I have heard). I said to DS originally that when they cancelled the August BMAT (due to Covid), that one of the things that often put people off Oxford was having to do the November BMAT, and hence apply without scores in hand, and that likely pushed a number of people towards Cambridge. I therefore suspected that having only a November BMAT might have pushed more Oxford versus Cambridge applicants this year (this is just my guess). I also think having only a November BMAT pushed a lot more applicants towards the UCAT universities, so I suspect (but haven't seen any figures yet), that other than Oxford, the BMAT universities may well not have any increase, or even a decrease, on the numbers applying there. the UCAT universities seem to have had a massive increase in numbers applying. Those who offered priority or higher scores to those with achieved grades in particular, which suggests that a good portion is driven by people with CAGs, but I don't know if that is fully clear. I think doctors being in the press via the pandemic, and the general economic situation out there may have also influenced. It has made it very hard for those whose DC whose hearts have been set on medicine from well before the pandemic.
A big difference also between considering Oxford and Cambridge is the emphasis on the GCSEs. If your DC is very good at science, but let's say, not necessarily the full all rounder to get a full suite of 8/9s, then your choice is made, it is Cambridge. It is very clear from the statistics that the chances of an interview or place at Oxford without a full suite or at least close to a full suite is very low (unless perhaps you are from an environment where contextual adjustment would play a big part).

@bimkom do you think it’s just medicine with increased applicants / fewer places due to deferrals , or do you think we just know about medicine because it’s one of the early applications ? Were applications also up for Oxbridge ? I’m trying to guess whether the other courses will also see similar increased entry requirements, and what that might mean for offers in May ...

@StillGardening no clue. I only know the figures from medicine because they were published on TSR (with loads of graphs and things). The rest is anecdotal. It might be just medicine, it might be anything health related, it might be in general (although that seems unlikely, it is not the highest birth rate year).

@bimkom thanks

Just been announced that no extra points will be given for an extra degree from 2023 graduates. So intercalating will not gain extra points.

Yes but an intercalation was never worth that many points anyway, not enough to be worth the cost of an additional year.

DDs medical school strongly advised that the decision to intercalate should be based on interest in the subject/specialisation. Not for the points.

True. But may put a few off taking an extra (expensive) year. New national exam coming in 2024 so ranking will be on that and sjt. Really will mean Uni makes no difference at all !

I was just coming on to say the same thing.

It seems a bit unfair that all the 2023 (and some of the 2024) graduates will have already intercalated or be intercalating this year and paid approx £20k for the extra year.

DDs medical school strongly advised that the decision to intercalate should be based on interest in the subject/specialisation. Not for the points

This might be good advice but I am sure for some students the extra points will have been the tipping factor in their decision.

@orangenasturtium there are some v angry students !

That does not make sense. If you wanted 7 extra points, there are far easier ways to do it. Surely you intercalate because you are interested in emergency medicine, or public health, or ethics, or engineering.

Actually that is something to look at. (For Oxbridge and indeed for any medical school.) I don't think Oxbridge allows you to intercalate externally but both Universities offer a good range of internal options. It may be worth checking the differences. DD is in London this year intercalating in an area that will support the specialism she wants to go into, in a department that probably has the UK, if not European, lead. It is something she has been interested in since sixth form, so it was important that the med schools she applied to offered the opportunity to intercalate externally.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_triangle_(universities)

www.intercalate.co.uk

She has discovered that her early exposure to a clinical setting is a real advantage. She is also surprised at the way some of her peers act like, well, like they are students. On an integrated course you are expected to take responsibility for your own learning. You are also expected to achieve something like a 95% attendance. Others clearly have spent the past three/two years in a more academic setting. More making sure you know what you have been taught for the exam. Including some epic all night sessions catching up on lectures, as attendance does not appear to be compulsory. (I assume lectures are not compulsory during preclinical years at Oxbridge either.) Presumably the more academic approach will mean you are better at exams/essays. But DD feels that the softer skills she has acquired are also valuable. She is quite practical so a more hands on medical course suits her.

Everything is on line at the moment so she has only met her coursemates over Zoom. Most are lovely but she did encounter one group of friends who clearly considered her medical school (Bristol) deeply inferior. It was fine. The group went onto discuss the pre-sessional maths course....and surprise, surprise, it was not DD who had struggled. All medical schools will turn out a lot of very good doctors and some poor ones. In any industry anyone who was to think that their Oxbridge degree guaranteed some form of superiority would not last long. Team work, empathy, diligence and and and will all come into play. I would focus on fit rather than the supposed prestige of the University.

Very angry indeed @mumsneedwine! One of mine is intercalating this year and graduates in 2023. He and his classmates are very unhappy. They don't get the benefit of the new national exam and they have invested time and money in a degree that may have little benefit. At least he is passionate about his BSc subject but maybe not passionate enough to spend £20k on it.

@orangenasturtium it's really not fair. Doesn't really effect mine as she does her degree within the 5 years but some of her cohort are cross as it takes away those extra points - it is so close between getting F1 choice and not. It's also changing the goal posts half way through their course. DD doesn't care as has no desire to work in London or become a Surgeon. She'll happily stay where she is and become an obstetrician or neonatal doctor. This week anyway.

We are not a medical family so don't really understand the points stuff.

Mumsneedwine, do you need top points to become a surgeon or to work in London?

Its odd, the medical students we know don't seem to have been as focussed. So someone wanting the specialise in emergency medicine chose to do their F1 in Newcastle. (Newcastle A&E on a Saturday night is presumably as good a training as anywhere!) A second cousin who chose to stay near to her medical school for F1 and F2 for personal reasons has just landed a sought after job in a popular hospital. As has her partner. Equally a (pretty high powered) London surgeon friend says that there is not a lot of competition for their trainee jobs, and DD was offered some paediatric work experience from someone I hardly knew, on the basis that they struggle to recruit so she was keen that would-be doctors were aware of her specialism.

DD says her friends are equally relaxed but she has noticed that some of the London students she has come across seem more grade focussed, choosing courses that promise easier grades. It seems a pity. There are so many different careers in medicine, that there ought to be something to suit everyone.

It's unfair when the goalposts are changed during play, so I have sympathy with those upset that they are not going to get points for intercalation when they started their degree thinking they would.

Back on topic, @bimkom thank you, that's really useful info. Good to know that Cambridge interview more.

@orangenasturtium yes I did ask what was better, but that was between the two, not other medical schools. Yes I absolutely agree I should have asked for pros and cons instead, which is why I said this myself two days before your post saying I should have done that.

The issue I had with MedStudent's posts it that she seemed rather intent on subtly putting down Oxbridge as medical schools, including saying that they way of teaching is outdated. @Needmoresleep has also now done similar, by saying how her DD finds her clinical course gives her advantage and that those on academic courses are too student-like and too focused on doing well in exams rather than in ensuring their attendance and softer skills are strong. With all due respect, that is just one medical student's view. But even if true, what of it? Presumably those doing less clinical courses will get there in the end otherwise so many qualified and practicing doctors wouldn't be from Oxbridge and other more initially academic courses. I have said repeatedly and I mean it that DS doesn't think Oxbridge is the best for medicine (just a good fit for him), but let's be honest, they're hardly bad courses. They do top the leaderboard for worldwide medical school so they must be doing something right.

I assure you @needmoresleep that DS and I are not considering Oxbridge purely for prestige. Nor have I said that Oxbridge is best. You however have said that the course your DD is doing is is the UK if not Europe leader in the topic and is not struggling with some of her intercalation course unlike some of her peers, so 'the best', prestige and comparison clearly matters to your DD and you. Which is fine.

@AsPerMyLastEmail sorry, we kind of hijacked your thread. Didn't mean too. 😊
@Needmoresleepyrs you need to be top 1/3 of cohort and ace SJT to get London deaneries as so competitive. DD same as yours - just wants to be a good doctor doing something that love.

@mumsneedwine no problem I see your DD wants to be an obstetrician or neonatal doctor - we always need good people in those roles!

Sorry OP, that was not my intention.

I was trying to say that different approaches lead to different strengths. Not that anything is "too" anything. I hope you can agree it is fair that DD has noticed that some have far less experience in group working, and that it is not surprising that she finds herself nominated for the work elements that require most knowledge of hospital practice or are most patient facing. Equally I assume others will stick their hands up for bits that might say, require a deeper knowledge of bio-chemistry.

I hope my tip of looking at intercalation options was helpful.

Equally I am not saying that Oxbridge is better, or worse. I feel as if you have decided to read my post in a specific way. I was genuinely trying to be helpful. And had considered a further post about why some of DDs year chose Oxford medicine over Cambridge and vv. (She went to the sort of school where almost 50% went on to Oxbridge so it was a discussion we were aware of.)

DD is very dyslexic. Her idea of hell would be to have to write a weekly essay. She loves being on the ward and the vocational nature of her course. They are all different, which is a good thing.

I do hope it is useful to combat what seemed to be an assumption that you can only go into academic medicine if you take one the more academic courses. Certainly from DDs intercalation there is lots of scope to go on to take a PhD. As with many things in education it is not about being "the best" at each stage but about being good enough to keep doors open.

Mumsneedwine, I still don't understand. DD may well want to end up working back home in London so actively wants to do her F1 and F2 elsewhere. Does this preclude her getting a job in London afterwards?

Her experience so far has been that placements in smaller hospitals are as interesting, and possibly better training, than in larger teaching hospitals as people are more generous with their time, and there is more variety.

I do hope it is useful to combat what seemed to be an assumption that you can only go into academic medicine if you take one the more academic courses

But I haven't in any way implied that I have that assumption

@Needmoresleep no definitely not ! It's only F1/ F2 that the points matter. After that it's open application so anyone can apply for anything anywhere.

@AsPerMyLastEmail I think your DC is applying to Oxbridge for the totally right reasons. They like the course style and Uni way of life. Just have that back up - it's a tough old process applying (head over to medicine 2021 thread to read this years stories).

So why do people get so worked up about London and points?

DD is convinced that she would get as good training if she stays in the West Country. Even in the smaller hospitals there have some very good doctors, good practice and some interesting things going on. Equally she spent a summer working in a care home on the south coast where hospital provision was good. Given the London doctors we know, talk about recruitment problems, she is assuming that if she does reasonably well she will still have the option to return. Especially with a relevant intercalated BSc - points or no points. .

@Needmoresleep no idea. Think there are just some people who like the cache of London. But most don't care and just want to be a doctor. DD agrees about smaller hospitals - much better experience.