Medicine: what’s better, Oxford or Cambridge?

[AsPerMyLastEmail]

DS wants to study medicine. For certain reasons beyond academics & reputation, he and I think Oxford or Cambridge may be a good fit for him. He’s Year 11 now so will be doing proper research nearer the time. Out of idle curiosity, I’d appreciate thoughts on which of the two is better for medicine. With the obvious caveat that ‘better’ is partly subjective.

@KaptainKaveman

Haha I thought that too *@ohmysquash*, posters coming on here to offer their advice based on experience and being rather snippily dismissed as not offering the 'right kind of advice'.

I can see why some students would prefer the collegiate experience, and 3 years on campus before going on to clinical placements, but I agree that some of the comments were uncalled for.

I haven't read all the thread here because my perspective doesn't come from my knowledge of either uni. I have no anti Oxbridge bias (my own child is currently applying to one though not for medicine). I happen to work in the area of the most popular foundation school.
Now the most popular foundation school doesn't necessarily mean the best. It's popular for a few reasons beyond that - many students who left London for medical school like the idea of returning to be near family, it's geographically a smaller area than most so commuting around the area is relatively easier, many F1/2 doctors are living with partners by then and many of them are not medical and there are more jobs in London than other areas in the South - but there is certainly a perception that there will be more opportunities to do things (publish etc) that will improve their ST applications.
In 15 years I've never had a F1/2 from Oxford or Cambridge - it might be because they are happy where they are of course or that they want to go somewhere else. But we have many doctors from Leeds, Manchester, Warwick, London. We also have a lot of people whose first degree was not in medicine.
I understand that you're not assuming that O/C is inherently better than the other options. But several of my DC's friends who have done work experience with me are applying to O/C and I can tell that they don't quite believe me when I tell them that, until they apply for consultancy or GP partnership, literally no one will ever know where they have been to medical school and they will never write a CV till then. I think they do assume that Oxbridge will confer some advantage (as indeed I assume it does in other careers) and it truly doesn't.
I think it might suit for all sorts of other reasons eg the supervision system but not for career advantage.

@goodbyestranger

Medstudent12 if you have 12 A*/ 10 9s at GCSE and are top of your class and think you'll enjoy science for three years and a good uni environment for six, and beyond that have a genuine interest and aptitude for being a doctor, you really don't need to be that strategic. The time when you do need to worry about strategy is if you're wobbly in one area or another. Really strong applicants will be fine.

Sadly I'm not sure this is true any longer. I know two people currently applying. Both have 10 X 9 at GCSE. Both are predicted all A*. One has a stellar (top decile) UCAT and very good BMAT. The other has a second decile UCAT and stellar BMAT. Both have one rejection already (and an interview at O/C) but both are wishing they had considered strategy better when making decisions. The majority of applicants will have superb qualifications and that isn't enough on its own.

donald there's no necessary reason why grades at that level carry with them a lack of aptitude for a career in Medicine, although I concede it's the usual mantra on MN; I also concede that these two applicants may lack what it takes. Plenty, as I said, cover both bases.

Re. your previous post, all I can say is that many many many students apply to those two deaneries from Oxford (I assume the same is true of Cambridge) - and plenty seem to get in. I think it's more about re-grouping with uni friends and bright lights rather than going home to mum. And some kids read Medicine at Oxbridge even though they come odd regional places which very much aren't London! Perhaps your specialty isn't one that those students tend to select? Otherwise I'm not quite clear how you can escape them!

Although obviously the way the system works there'll be a good mix of uni backgrounds; all they need is a high point score and to list those deaneries as top choice.

Never understood why parents feel they have to insist their child's medical school is/was perfect. Medicine is a team career and doctors need to value all members of their team.

Junior doctors may have to move for specialty training posts. There are quite a few around London so a perception that there is less risk of constantly moving home and being easier to maintain relationships.

If medical students want to work in London then they need to start doing things early on that will get them extra points in the application process. There is a fairly narrow range of points and a single extra point can make the difference between being offered a post or not. It can also mean more choice of job within the deanery, since jobs are allocated on a points score. I doubt anyone gets a job in the most competitive deaneries unless they intercalate. It might be possible if their Situational Judgement Test score is brilliant, they are top decile in their medical school and they publish/ do conferences a lot but that is unpredictable and unreliable. It come as a shock to many medical students to discover how long publication can take.

Every year some people with brilliant academics dont get a place at medical school. If they want they usually get a place the following year. Applying strategically may not be necessary for most of the very academically able, it clearly is for some. No-one can take a successful application for granted.

@KaptainKaveman

Haha I thought that too *@ohmysquash*, posters coming on here to offer their advice based on experience and being rather snippily dismissed as not offering the 'right kind of advice'.

To a totally disinterested observer (no intended Medicine, nor yet Oxbridge, applicant here) ,this thread feels like a rather bizarre round of Twenty Questions...

With any luck, though, the advice and even opinions proffered, though of no use to the OP, will be appreciated by others with less specific (/ obscure) needs.

alreadytaken this is what happens on the MN medical threads, exaggerating the difficulty. My own DS got his top choice of deanery (one of those two named), also his top choice of rotations. He wasn't alone at his med school by any means. The six years at Oxford does give a small points boost though, accepted.

The perceived difficulty of everything to do with Oxbridge applications and med school applications is blown out of all proportion on MN. I assume there's some agenda to this that has passed me by.

Never understood why parents feel they have to insist their child's medical school is/was perfect.

alreadytaken I can't see any poster claiming superiority of Oxford over Cambridge in a single post on this thread. The highest one can put it is that a few have pointed out the practical advantage of placements commutable from uni accommodation and a woeful lack of clubbing opportunities at Cambridge. To be fair, the latter is not a reflection on the med school.

Medicine is a team career and doctors need to value all members of their team.

Even if your first comment was correct, which is demonstrably isn't, then I'd counsel you not to visit the sins of parents on their DC.

My DD's fifth year friends all got their first choice deaneries, even though they 'only' went to Nottingham. And they all graduated early and started work in March this year to help out. Not everyone wants to work in London and amazingly people get just as sick in the rest of the country. The F1 in Scotland has done orthopedic surgery and delivered babies as she is in a remote hospital where everyone seems to do everything. Only most urgent cases are helicoptered out. That sounds amazing to me. And there are centres of excellence in all regions. London is not the aim of a lot of doctors. Including my DD who grew up near there and has no desire to move back.

I think the poster who posted about the two London deaneries was merely pointing out how competitive they were, meaning more people apply there/ aim for there than elsewhere.

There's also a pattern in med students applying to stay in the area in which they trained. All good. As you say, illness isn't the preserve of Londoners.

The Scottish health service in the Highlands and Islands is indeed fantastic.

Get on to Medic Mentor - they’re doing live virtual work experience third Saturday of the month until at least March I believe. Also virtual medical society and book club. Wexp is accredited by Medical Skills Council. Brilliant opportunity for any potential medics. They do veterinary and dentistry too.

@StillGardening I'd that free ? I'm off to have a peak for our students.

@mumsneedwine yes - get in touch with them. They also do conferences on how to apply, which are normally £50 but they will give you a code. I think they’ve made free for everyone anyway at the moment , but I found it useful to talk to them. The conferences are on Saturdays (all day) via zoom, and students have to be accompanied for safeguarding. (They are brilliant from a safeguarding POV, have thought it all through really well so no concerns). And everything they do is evening weekend, so not impacting curriculum. We’ve just started using them - so pleased !!

Accompanied by parents/guardians !

@StillGardening thank you so much. I hadn't looked as they are usually quite expensive. I'm off to email them now 😊

Thank you so much, some brilliant advice and takes of experience here.

Yes I was snippy to @Medstudent12 about some of her post. I thanked her (genuinely) for the rest of her advice. Many other posters had already said by that point that it didn’t matter where you studied for medicine, and I knew and accepted that. There was an assumption by Medic12 and some that I and DS thought Oxbridge was the best and wouldn’t settle for less. That does us a disservice. It is incredibly frustrating that just because I asked about Oxford or Cambridge, several posters assume that means we look down on other places, aren’t considering others, or are only interested in the prestige despite saying he wasn’t. That’s their assumptions & biases. I’d read other medical student threads where there was pointed and rather competitive discussion about which medical school is best and posters very keen to point out all the ways in which Oxbridge for medical school isn’t ‘all that’. I was joking to avoid that here!

@ohmysquash thank you haha.

Funny that as a doctor (and one who has interviewed prospective medical students myself) my opinions on what is important for doctors have been disregarded by people who are non medical but happen to be the parents of a sixth former keen to go into medicine.

Most of the people on here seem lovely. But gosh some of these comments are terrible.

Whenever said they want a doctor who trained somewhere prestigious?!?!? Good luck choosing who sees you when you’re in ED resus with abdominal pain at 3am! We’re not in the states, you don’t get to decide who is the better doctor based on prejudices that you have about different educational institutions.

I hope all of your kiddies do well, medicine anywhere is an achievement. And no one gives a flying where you trained. I hope all your dc are happy wherever they train. Remember if they don’t get the uni they wanted they will likely have a fantastic time wherever they go.

There’s not much of an evidence base for the old school teaching methods. Hence why most universities have moved away from them. But I’m glad they’re an option for people who prefer that way of learning.

I’m gonna bow out now, I think I’m meant to identify myself if posting on social media as a doctor and don’t fancy doing that.

I can’t believe covid hasn’t put them all off haha.

Xxxx

No MedStudent I didn’t disregard your opinions. I respect that at F1 and beyond it’s not important where you went to medical school. But that doesn’t deter or change DS wanting to go to Oxbridge.

I think you are being a bit unfair to Medstudent12 @AsPerMyLastEmail

You asked the question "What's better?". I think what most people, including Medstudent12, are saying is that when it comes to medicine, it doesn't matter where you got your degree from a career point of view, it's more important to find a med school that suits your DS so that they flourish, do the best they can, and be near the top of their cohort academically, which will give them an advantage career wise. Nobody can answer which is better for him as they don't know your DS, and you haven't said much about what it is that he is looking for in a med school apart from being interested in research and liking Oxbridge for a reason you haven't specified.

If you want to know which has the best reputation, I guess Oxford usually ranks higher than Cambridge in the league tables FWIW. But I don't think that's what you are asking.

I'm guessing what you really want to know from people who studied there or have DC who studied there, is what the pros and cons/strengths of the courses are so your DS can decide for himself, rather than asking people to tell you which is better?

I think people are making guesses (rather than assumptions) because you have been a bit vague.

Whoever said they want a doctor who trained somewhere prestigious?!?!?

Medstudent12 I expect my post is the nearest you could get to that. The problem is, it's a distortion of what I said. Also, you still haven't pointed to a single post where anyone has actually said anything about prestige, which you've banged on about more than once. Where are these posts? I don't see them.

I copy below what I actually wrote. Fair to say that I lived in America for several years and (with a very ill new born in intensive care and in critical care myself, with long follow up periods) I'm only too familiar with defensive medicine. I've had to deal with negligence and with some seriously unethical medical professionals in the UK, so I might be a bit more finely tuned on this than the ordinary lay person. I have a legal background myself, which colours my views of just how far one should regard doctors as infallible or even efficient. When I've had doubts, I've certainly looked up where the doctors in question trained; I've also looked up the backgrounds of doctors to whom I've asked to be referred. So, here it is again:

I look at the background with cases of negligence. I mean, it interests me and there's a pattern. In terms of my own health care or my family's health care I do look up the doctor's background where I have cause for concern - and I've had a few of those. Not many, but enough to think my goodness you're pretty flakey let's see where you trained. I doubt it's a national hobby

Defensive medicine and all the other peculiarities of the American system.

You said a lot more than that @goodbyestranger but the post has been deleted, presumably at your request.

My Cambridge sibling with the pretty good medical career I think HAS found it useful but that might be due to their care - NHS consultant, professor PhD, private work court work. if a judge in a case went to Cambridge they might prefer someone else who went to Cambridge. Also I know a good few doctors who retrained as personal injury lawyers - and having Oxbridge on the CV never hurts in life. That said my uncle and father read medicine at in those days Durham and did fine - my father worked in Newcastle all his life and my uncle became one of those doctors in charge of public health in a region in the SE of England and then emigrated to work in Tasmania as a doctor - in fact he might have come into his own in 2020 were he still alive with the prominence of public health doctors in times of pandemic I suppose.

I always look at where private doctors when the family use them trained - not because that decides the issue but it is relevant to me.

No I said absolutely nothing more than that on the subject orangenasturtium, not a squeak. The post which I asked to be deleted was on the previous page to the comment I've just copied and I asked for it to be deleted simply because I'd posted an unnecessary correction to the grammar, which on a re-reading was in fact fine. Very happy indeed for you to verify that with MN. I'm afraid though that once done, that leaves you with the task of proving what you've just said - which will be an impossible task!