Medicine 2021

[Millylovespuddles]

Hi all
It looks like there’s no medicine 2021 entry thread yet, so it might be an idea to get the ball rolling.
My DD is getting stuck into her A level course, doing well so far, but I’m guessing we parents could do with some mutual support and advice from parents who’ve been here before.

Oh brill, just what I’m looking for!
DS is torn between medicine and chemical engineering (!) and I’m a bit clueless about the pitfalls of the university and UCAS procedures.
Chemistry, Maths, Biology and Physics A levels so far, may drop one next year..... well, that’s what I’m trying to advise him to do, but we’ll wait and see

Torn between 3 or 4 A Levels too. I’m in the drop one camp, not so much that I don’t think DD couldn’t do well in 4, but I want her to have a more balanced final year. She has lots of extra-curriculars that she doesn’t want to give up, and hasn’t even started hospital volunteering yet.
She’s doing biology, chemistry, maths and geography.
Are there any parents whose DC found in favour of one or other?

Hello - I will join too if that’s ok?
DD has her heart set on Medicine and we’ve been researching as much as possible! We were strongly advised to stick to 3 A levels and concentrate on getting the required grades for those, keeping time available for volunteering, work experience, researching, reading journals, revising for UCAT and BMAT etc.
Apparently the 4th A level won’t give them an advantage whereas having time to do all the other stuff will! DD is going to do an EPQ too though.
I think this is going to be a roller coaster!!

Hi. I'm from the 2018 thread and have a 2nd year DD at Nottingham. These things are so helpful and supportive. I would strongly urge 3 A Levels - they won't even look at your 4th. Better to do an EPQ on a medical related subject as it not only gives you something to talk about in depth at interview but some Unis (Sheffield is one I know of) give lower offer if A in EPQ.
Applying strategically is so so so so important. Look at how they select for interview not minimum needed - everyone has that. And ace the UCAT/BMAT. Oh and the majority will never read the personal statement (GMC decides was a bad method for recruitment). Please ask anything. We are a non medic family and it was all very new to us. It's a bumpy journey but DD got 4 offers and seems to be coping fine from a comp. Good luck.

Nice to hear from you both! We are based in NI and EPQ isn’t something we’ve heard of... is it something only done in upper sixth? Y13 for you?
Mumsneedwine- I know about applying strategically, but how exactly do you find out which criteria universities base their shortlist on? For the record, DD has 11 A*, is doing grade 8 flute and piano, gold DoE.

The entry requirements - and how each Medical school uses each component - can be found here:
www.medschools.ac.uk/studying-medicine/applications/entry-requirements

So 11 As will get her anywhere, as long as gets good UCAT/BMAT. But I'd definitely recommend Cardiff as they only shortlist using GCSEs so if tests go badly they will be a good one to choose.
DD shortlisted by deciding how she wanted to learn (PBL, CBL, integrated are the choices), early patient contact and dissection. This narrowed it down to about 12. She then looked at her GCSE grades and ruled out those that she stood less chance at (6 As and 4 As ruled out Cardiff). Then after UCAT and open days (we did 6) she chose the 4 most likely to give her an interview.
You can find the info on each Uni webpage usually under selection criteria - I can help if you have any Unis in mind as can take a bit of digging to find it. Sheffield are so transparent as are some others - 7 As and you make it to UCAT scoring and they interview the top 1000 ish, and publish previous years cut offs so can gauge whether have a shot. So ranking is done by a lot of Unis totally on entrance tests and doesn't matter if you 7 or a 100 As, they only look at UCAT. Medify is great for practice for that - mine did 4 weeks and did ok.

Although Exeter use predicted grades for selection - weird as so many schools make it up. Bristol used to be PS heavy but are now ranking just in UCAT. Lots changes each year so open days are your key - the admissions tutors are all lovely.
And so many new schools like part time jobs

Thanks for that... that’s amazing that she got 4 offers, It is a great axample of how to target the courses to apply for. Can I ask where else she applied? Cardiff was in the ‘don’t know’ pile, as she’s more inclined towards the traditional courses, but on reading their prospectus, it could be in the running.
Lala - has your DS any idea of where his preferences lie?

Mine applied to Notts, Sheffield, Southampton and Liverpool. She didn't want traditional courses but early patient contact and chance to do dissection. I think looking at the Uni location is important too and also the size of the Deanery - not something we thought about as had no clue. But it comes into play once placements start. Some areas are huge !

Milly DS1 had a similar profile to your DS with 12 A at GCSE and took four A levels in Y13 plus the EPQ. He took history alongside biology, chemistry and physics purely because he enjoyed it, not to give him any perceived 'edge' - but his life wasn't dominated by med school applications. He had a very balanced life despite that (and got all A) - so a good social life, a part time job, what work experience he could get, the usual senior prefect stuff etc. I knew nothing about med school applications when he applied and gave him no help beyond general fairly unfocussed advice - he didn't need my help. The history helped him when he was at Oxford with essays for tutorials and the full all round programme also helped I think, in the juggling of time so as to get the most out of his six years in terms of combining social things, extra curricular things and the work itself. He's now an F2 in London and enjoying hospital life hugely. If your DD wants to go for Oxford or Cambridge don't be put off by those on these threads who say that those medics aren't people people because that's a lot of complete and utter nonsense! (it's a bit of a thing on MN though). Your DD is clearly in the frame, if that's the direction she wants to go in - although she may not, which is also fine!

Sunnysandels, DD, now third year, was also torn, in her case between engineering and medicine.

It is worth knowing about www.intercalate.co.uk/

Not all courses offer intercalation and fewer let you study elsewhere. DD is lucky in that she can, and having more than three A levels will do her no harm in her applications as they demonstrate sustained interest and aptitude in her chosen field.

Don’t do more than three if you will struggle, but if you can and still have a life, why not. Wider education/knowledge rarely goes amiss, plus prepares you for med school workloads.

It is also worth mentioning that MN DC seem extraordinarily talented, and I am not sure they are representative of med school applicants in general. DD was one of three medic applicant friends who were hiding in a corner of the sixth form common room in March, seemingly the only ones without offers, whilst their peers were applying for accommodation etc. DD got a place, one friend got one on reapplication and the third fell in love with IT during his gap year so switched focus. Four offers are rare, many talented applicants won’t get any, and the process can be lengthy and stressful. You need to pay careful attention to the scoring used by different universities, and accept you may need to reapply. Birmingham Nottingham and Cardiff are popular choices for those with strong GCSEs.

Please please please be aware that lots of people whose kids did 4 A levels did not do the new ones. Anyone from more than 3 years ago doesn't count ! I say this as a teacher - the new ones are tough and getting the grades is not easy. Lots last year didn't.

Yes, but 4 A level are still on offer at many private/grammar schools. My guess is that their teachers are also experienced and would not be encouraging this if they thought students could not manage.

MN is a forum that allows people to share their knowledge and experience. No experience, or knowledge, is universal. Mumsneedwine is very clear in her view that no student should take more than three A levels, and her DD has clearly done very well indeed. All I was saying is that DD is now finding that her ‘extra’ A level is proving useful. It made no difference when she was applying, though might have done had she taken BMAT. Studying different subject but DS found, like Strangers son, that history A level was a help when he came to sections of GMAT, the graduate admissions test.

Even teachers are not alway right.

(In terms of workload both mine, like several of their friends, took five...something I think is still on offer at their school even with the change in exams. I don’t think either found this ‘too many’, or stopped them from being prefects, playing for sports teams, computer gaming, volunteering etc. Neither does this imply that they are brighter or have more potential than those who take three. But it does mean they had a broader education, and this can sometimes be an advantage.)

OP I'm going to back out as this is going to go the way of previous experiences when trying to help. Open days are great for up to date unbiased facts from admissions tutors. Good luck and I hope this thread is as supportive to you all as the 2018 one was for me - my DD knows another posters DD and they send us photos on nights out.

mumsneedwine I don't see a vast difference in terms of workload between the new and the old actually (four DC did them as modular, two were interim and two have done fully linear - all seem to have identical workloads). The issue here is about workload rather than the difficulty of the specs themselves, so am in agreement with Needmoresleep.

Also yes, teachers are a mixed bag, like every other profession, but all good teachers will know that one size doesn't fit all.

This is not a disagreement. Some applicants are best advised to stick to three, and do them well. Others have more headroom and can manage four. It may not make them better doctors, but it helps keep doors open.

Not all medical students become practising doctors. Some become comedians...others might become journalists or lawyers, where skills gained from that history A level would help, banking where again maths or economics would not go amiss. DD was genuinely torn between engineering and medicine. She loves medicine but an intercalation will give her a chance to dip her toes elsewhere. And who knows. She may well end up in a worthwhile job on an interface between the two, perhaps as a medic, perhaps as a researcher.

Managing a larger than normal workload is not really a matter of intelligence, but of approach. DC would recommend preparing for lectures and other teaching, listening carefully when there and going through content immediately afterwards to be sure you have understood and retained, keeping regular office-type hours and not trying to be perfectionist. If in a selective environment you don't need to aim to be top of the year.

It is always interesting to look at Oxbridge boats and see what years rowers are in and what subjects. There are usually a few medics or NatScis. The big example is Laura Muir who was able combine international athletics with qualifying as a vet. These will be exceptions, but also examples of why teachers should be careful when saying "can't" or from discouraging able pupils from stretching themselves or aiming high.

I'm not advocating four, simply saying four can have benefits which are nothing to do with admissions, and that saying never more than three is a bit limited on the part of teachers.

I think the 4 vs 3 debate can be seen in different ways. Generally speaking, taking 4 won’t help when applying for medicine and won’t give “the edge” - however 4 could keep options open, could allow a student to develop a wider education, could be a fall back in case medicine doesn’t work out could enable a year in a different country etc.

So pros and cons and it’s for everyone to decide for themselves what their ultimate end goal is and how they would like to approach it.

For us, DD is taking 3, as advised by her sixth form college. She chose this college as they send many students to medical school every year.

She is doing EPQ, has already gathered work experience and is volunteering weekly. She’s on sports teams and has a paid part time job. All things that from our research and the information from college and admissions departments, we believe will prove more useful than the 4th A level.

However, should she have been between Medicine and another subject for the future, we may well have chosen differently.

LaLaFlottes I think the point is that it isn't an either/ or necessarily. Some DC manage four or more and everything else which goes with a balanced life and emerge with top grades having enjoyed more breadth than some teachers would allow them. The trope on MN is always 'three good grades are better than four less good grades' but that is a mesmerisingly limited outlook for a number of reasons. Four clearly isn't always a good idea but this prescriptive line of three and three only is symptomatic of an education geared to the lowest common denominator, which is pretty miserable tbh. Another thing I'd add is that the medicine threads so often give the impression that all Y12/13 would be medics have to devote their KS5 to a narrow pursuit of activities calculated to enhance their med school applications, which I think is misleading.

Agree it’s not an either or - but it stands to reason that if the 4th A level isn’t done, there will be more time to do everything else that will help the application.

At my DD’s college, it most definitely isn’t geared to lowest common denominator - it’s geared to what strategically will lead to the strongest application. For Medicine this is what they advise - however had DD been considering other options too, it may well have been different.

They would have let DD do 4 A levels, due to her GCSE results being really good, but when it comes down to it, the 4th A level wouldn’t get her closer to her goal so there was little point in adding this to her work load.

Anyway, clearly lots of ways of looking at it and I’m sure for all the DC who have parents on this thread will benefit from it over the forthcoming months.

Is anyone else looking at Scottish Universities at all?
We were thinking that they may be harder to get into as many Scottish students will stay in Scotland, but apparently 1/3 of places are ring fenced for English students so maybe it’s not too bad?

Lala - interested in Scottish ones, but have the same concerns about competition. Edinburgh seems especially hard to get into, but it may change a little this year - up till now they didn’t interview for places.

You need to look very carefully at individual university application processes and what selection criteria is.
Practice for UKCAT helps a lot and many weight BMAT/UKCAT scores over A level IB predicted results. They say it’s not possible to practice but that’s not true. Plenty of practice books and tutored courses online. Abstract reasoning definitely improves with practice.
Practice interviews if they interview at chosen universities. Get a current medical student or young doctor to talk through their questions. Use an older doctor or lecturer to do mock interviews and guide around ethical thinking and professionalism.
Few in my daughters year at university had less than four A levels. Plus additional extracurricular UCAS points. All had very high UKCAT scores.

Thanks Cherry. I agree about UKCAT. DD has started having a look and the section you mentioned, Abstract Reasoning is definitely the one she found most difficult, but already with some practice has improved. I’m glad you can confirm that practise helps with it in general too.

We were at a Medic Mentors conference a few weeks back, about the admissions process and they said that UCAS points don’t really matter as much for medicine, as the universities don’t use the tariff- just the required grades and then UCAT/BMAT interview, personal statement etc. Although each university seems to have very different selection criteria like you say. It seems like the choice of where to apply has to be very strategic rather than just choosing your favourite university!

Milly - yes there may well be a drop off in number of applications per place now that they are interviewing. At the medic mentors conference we went to, they showed the number of applications per place over two consecutive years and you could see a big drop in applications in years when something like this had changed. It was interesting! They were pitching the ring fencing of 1/3 places for English students as a positive thing but I can’t make my mind up!