Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Medicine 2021

999 replies

Millylovespuddles · 28/11/2019 19:46

Hi all
It looks like there’s no medicine 2021 entry thread yet, so it might be an idea to get the ball rolling.
My DD is getting stuck into her A level course, doing well so far, but I’m guessing we parents could do with some mutual support and advice from parents who’ve been here before.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
mumsneedwine · 04/12/2019 23:04

It's possible ! We felt the same but somehow DD is in 2nd year and doing ok. Some of the stories we heard about how no one ever gets in made my hair go grey. At one interview day I was the only non medic parent (& the only state school parent). But she made it and so can yours. Her grades are amazing. As Sir Toby says, it's now down to the entrance exams. I think the UCAT was devised by a sadistic mind !!!

SirTobyBelch · 04/12/2019 23:09

If we were favouring lower-scoring applicants over those who scored higher but applied earlier

Sorry. Long day. That should have said "...over those who scored higher but applied later".

CherryPavlova · 05/12/2019 07:22

They obviously have to await UKCAT and BMAT. What I meant was don’t wait dithering until the cut off point - which is earlier than other courses anyway, unless it’s changed in last few years.
Get the aptitude’s done and use the results to help inform the places you apply to dependent on weighting. Use their best skills to greatest advantage and choose at least a couple of schools on their greatest talents - whether they interview well versus a really high BMAT but a bit introverted etc.
Go for it and hopefully await a long night of university acceptance declarations before you collect the A level results.
I think when our daughter applied that all except two of those in her year at school (seven youngsters) who applied were offered at least one place. Those that didn’t had weaker GCSE and AS levels.
One of those did a nursing degree and got onto postgraduate medicine and will qualify, albeit a bit later than the others.

MarchingFrogs · 05/12/2019 07:49

Oxford only recognise the (end of) October BMAT sitting, I think? So no scope at all for getting it done early. And even medical schools (or rather, the institutions of which they are a part) probably care enough about preserving the benefits of the UCAS system to adhere to the rules of equal consideration to be given to all on time applicants?

goodbyestranger · 05/12/2019 08:48

Yes that's correct, Oxford doesn't recognise the early BMAT.

I just keep getting the impression that gaining a place is almost impossible! This is the problem with these threads over the past few years, as they've tended to be more populated by those with DC with more middling grades, or possibly those with DC with more middling grades have been the most vocal, so their views have gained primacy. It stands to reason that when you're sitting on middling grades you need to be far more strategic than you do with 9A* and upwards, which a number of the DC on here seem to have. Obviously you need to demonstate that you're interested in the career for the right reasons and have the right attributes etc but that's no harder for a DC with very good grades than those without. As it happens we're a completely non medical family too (if you don't count the early 20th century Scottish doctors on my mother's side of the family - not well placed for work experience help on a number of counts....). But I didn't go to open days (well, DS didn't go to open days, he used the websites from the comfort of home!), so I never came up against a wall of doctors at open days for that reason. But it's clearly not a showstopper if you don't have doctor parents, if only on the basis of mumsneedwine's DD and my own DS's. Finally, to the best my knowledge it's been exactly ten years since any applicant at our school has been left without a place (again, a DC with less good grades), so do try to disregard a lot of the noise about how amazing it is even to get one place, and how hard that is - it really isn't. They need to keep grounded but be positive, especially with the expansion of places.

Interesting to hear that account of Imperial HostessTrolley

mumsneedwine · 05/12/2019 15:17

At most Unis having 'middling' grades or stellar off the chart grades don't make any difference. Once you reach the minimum they don't care. 7 As or 250 A stars - not important. It comes down to UCAT or BMAT scores. Which is how those with middling results get 4 offers. The entrance tests have taken on so much more importance in the last few years.
And Unis don't get UCAT results until beginning of November so early applying makes any difference.
It is possible. Even at my DDs comp everyone got at least one offer.

goodbyestranger · 05/12/2019 15:24

But ‘most unis’ almost by definition excluded the top group of unis, who do appear to care. That’s kind of the point.

goodbyestranger · 05/12/2019 15:27

Exclude not excluded. Attempting to type on a small phone.

goodbyestranger · 05/12/2019 15:29

There certainly are some unis who ignore the academic record and that’s good news for more middling achievers.

goodbyestranger · 05/12/2019 15:31

So I think my position is that offers are more probable than not for higher achievers.

This tiny phone is terrible!

goodbyestranger · 05/12/2019 15:35

The BMAT was absolutely critical for both DS’s Oxford and Imperial applications in 2011 and are no more or less key in this current cycle. I think the same is likely to be true for Cambridge and UCL.

mumsneedwine · 05/12/2019 15:41

But this is not an Oxford or Cambridge thread. Or even a 'top 5' (whatever that means) thread. It's about applying to medicine all over the UK.

goodbyestranger · 05/12/2019 15:46

Yes absolutely mumsneedwine. And it’s entirely possible that those with 9A * might want to go to the higher ranked med schools.

mumsneedwine · 05/12/2019 16:49

Ranked by who though ? The GMC don't rank them nor do the BMA. That's all I'm saying - good doctors can come from anywhere and its more important to enjoy the way the course is taught than worry about any perceived prestige. So go to those Unis if that's what you like but don't if you don't.

Needmoresleep · 05/12/2019 17:50

Of course good doctors can come from any medical school. Indeed some of our very best doctors are from schools outside the UK.

Stranger is right though in that some schools run courses which have a greater emphasis on academics, whilst others have a lot more early patient contact.

Which is best for a particular student is up to that particular student. So my dyslexic DD is probably better off at a University that does not require weekly essays, whilst she really enjoys, and gains a lot from, patient contact. Her course fits well with her strengths and weaknesses and I expect her choice of specialisation will do the same. And that this specialisation will be no better and no worse that a specialisation that suits someone who is highly academic but who perhaps does not enjoy patient contact. (A friend of mine was like this. He studied at Cambridge, and hated a spell at Great Ormond Street : patients were bad enough but worried parents were worse. He is now a leading researcher in diagnostic cancer radiology in the US.)

Which is "easier" to get into is also moot. Bristol, where DD is, gives out a lot of contextual offers, so might look easier. However from DDs private school where virtually everyone took at least 4 A levels and around 75% of these were at A*, a place at Bristol was considered a real achievement (this was in the days when Bristol did not use UKCAT and relied heavily on PS) as the competition was huge and very academic kids had no particular advantage. Most of her peers went to BMAT schools.

It's not that hard. Some schools give a good deal of weight to academic performance, others, Keele is one example, may have a lower academic bar but will be looking for other things.

In short, those with a long stream of As at GCSE, and who like the idea of three years of academic study really should consider Oxbridge...in part because it may well be as easier to get a place there than it would be somewhere with different selection criteria. Ditto a string of As won't get you far in many places if you have a mediocre UKCAT (DDs problem.)

I would still argue that an intercalation year can help deliver an interesting middle ground. And fun. Though not necessarily in the normal MN "drinking and snogging" idea of fun. DD finds learning cool, and expects to enjoy the year, in part because it will be a challenge and a real change from what she has done so far.

I would add that Stranger's DC's school seemed to outperform DDs school in terms of their success with medical school applications. My understanding was the school often had a couple each year, out of possibly 20 or so, who wound up with no place despite a likely 4xA* prediction. This certainly happened in DDs year. It is competitive and there is an element of luck. Applicants were encouraged to see the whole thing as a two year application. Reapplicants to medicine often do better as they have previous experience of the process and a year's extra maturity.

Stranger is right though.

Parents should encourage DC to find a good fit but not to dumb things down if they have the grades and the sorts of attributes that the schools are looking for.

On top of the sort of course, and the scope for intercalation, there are a whole lot of other factors. DD really likes Bristol. Interesting range of experience, some very good hospitals, some glorious countryside, and more hills and fewer tourists than Oxford.

I would recommend looking at distance from home. Far enough but not too far, is good. My mother died a couple of months ago and it was really lovely that DD was able to join us the night she passed, plus come home the next weekend and then for the funeral. Ditto it was nice that she could come home for a break during her first term, and during a period of illness.

They will also have individual reasons. The fact that Bristol seem to take relatively few from the more academic private schools suits DD. She is the only south-eastener in her friendship group and they do things like camping in November, or surfing. (I know!) There is plenty of social life but different from the sort of experience her friends at Oxbridge are getting (where some appear to be struggling to move beyond existing London social circles), London (though DD would have been quite happy to go there had she got a place), or indeed the sort of student life mumsneedwine describes.

Its all about fit. Apply to the place that feels right, as long as you meet criteria, and it probably will be right.

goodbyestranger · 05/12/2019 18:22

someone who is highly academic but who perhaps does not enjoy patient contact.

Good post Needmoresleep, as ever, but just a quibble about that sentence, since it juxtaposes highly academic and inability to communicate effectively/ dislike of patient contact. The reality is that lots of highly academic people are also highly effective communicators and enjoy patient contact! You don't need to lack top grades to be a people person!

Needmoresleep · 05/12/2019 18:43

I tried to clarify by giving an example of my friend. Just Googled him. Degrees in both engineering and medicine. Leading research position at one of the US’s top cancer hospitals. He would be the first to admit, despite his huge intelligence, he finds people hard to understand.

DDs school were clear. Even though Oxbridge/London BMAT schools would be looking for strong academics, there were also increasingly interested in applicants having the people skills needed for almost all roles in medicine.

They are all different. Having one set of skills does not mean they won’t have another. It is about knowing your strengths. And my belief is that applicants offering strong academics may have a comparative advantage if applying to med schools looking for strong academics.

goodbyestranger · 05/12/2019 19:33

Needmoresleep when DS interviewed at both Oxford and Imperial they very definitely assessed his general aptitude for people facing clinical work as well as his academic strength. The idea that these two qualities is mutually exclusive is one too often touted on these threads, and wholly incorrect.

ProfessorLayton1 · 05/12/2019 21:37

You are most likely to get an offer if you have stellar grades, good UKCAT/ BMAT scores and I am yet to see such a strong candidate fail to secure a place to study medicine.

When a high achieving student fails to get an offer it is usually that their BMAT scores or UKCAT scores are not great. I agree with goodbyestranger - why should they not aim high?

I know a lot of doctors who are strong academically, with superb people skills, excellent hand eye coordination making them extraordinary surgeons ,they are fun socially , play instruments, write poetry , do dance shows etc., etc., I am not sure why there is an opinion that you can't have people skills if you are an academic!!!

Oxford medics post was spot on..

It is not just a medical degree you get out being in a university, there are other opportunities you can benefit from going to a particular university.

You need the drive, stamina and ambition to get to where you want to.

Don't forget, medicine is a long haul and there are other things which will be important in their life in future..

Needmoresleep · 05/12/2019 22:44

Stranger...not touted by me!

DD was very lucky to be at school with some extraordinarily talented people, many of whom were also great fun. And some went on to study medicine!

Prof Layton, I will stick to my guns and say that some strong applicants get missed first time round. However all we knew who tried again with strong achieved grades got places in medical schools they wanted.

I hope this is useful for those a year away from applying. A lot perhaps to think about.

Millylovespuddles · 09/12/2019 18:44

I’ve been reading the 2020 thread and it’s suddenly getting very real.... fingers crossed, this time next year our DC will be getting spruced up for a few interviews!

OP posts:
lionfish · 10/12/2019 09:23

I know @Millylovespuddles, I've been thinking 'this time next year' about my DDs application too. Does your DC know where they'd like to apply? Mine will go anywhere that will have her and therefore apply tactically once she has her UCAT score and her predicted grades in hand.

We have her parents evening in school this week so will have more of an insight whether it's realistic for her to aim for Medicine or not. DD included a UCAT practice book on her Christmas list so at least she appears to be taking it seriously!

Millylovespuddles · 11/12/2019 17:22

No firm decisions yet, but the front runners at this stage are - Cardiff, QUB, Edinburgh or Glasgow, Nottingham, Bristol. And if DD decides to try for Cambridge, she would also consider Leeds too. As you know, this could change- all she feels at this point is that she prefers traditional or integrated courses.
What about your DD?

OP posts:
SirTobyBelch · 11/12/2019 17:45

"Integrated" is a pretty meaningless term, really. All medicine courses are integrated; they all use the word to mean different things. (Ditto "early clinical experience".)

There aren't many medicine courses that describe themselves as "traditional", but this term can often be used to mean "lecture-based", which doesn't necessarily mean what your daughter might think of as "traditional". For example, Brighton & Sussex's course is described as lecture-based but I wouldn't call it traditional.

It's interesting that many of the students who really don't want to think about courses with a greater emphasis on self-directed learning (e.g. problem-based learning) are the ones who would be best at it. I've worked with sixth-formers who are completely natural at the activities I've done with them - which are essentially PBL without being called that - but who are adamant that they wouldn't want to do a PBL course.

There aren't any purely PBL or purely lecture-based courses. All use a variety of large- and small-group teaching methods. It's just that some explicitly use PBL as a major small-group method. As an example, look at Norwich Medical School's description at www2.uea.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/degree/detail/mbbs-medicine (click on "course structure" and "teaching and learning"), and similar details for Nottingham (very often referred to as "traditional"): www.nottingham.ac.uk/ugstudy/subject/Medicine (click on "how will I study?").

mumsneedwine · 11/12/2019 18:48

Can't speak for anywhere else but Nottingham is not traditional. Mixture of lectures, CBL, PBL, placements at hospitals and GPs from first year. Dissection, bit of protection, OSCEs from year 1.