Medicine 2021

[Millylovespuddles]

Hi all
It looks like there’s no medicine 2021 entry thread yet, so it might be an idea to get the ball rolling.
My DD is getting stuck into her A level course, doing well so far, but I’m guessing we parents could do with some mutual support and advice from parents who’ve been here before.

Sorry, got attacked by puppy. Think lots of courses have changed in recent years (last 2-4) to become more varied in their teaching. Why open days are invaluable as they give the up to date info from the admissions tutors themselves - even the internet can be out of date. Although Imperial changed from having dissection to not after this years 1st years had started, which I think caused a bit of upset for a short time.

Last thing. One thing to ask is what is the policy on not passing all your exams at the end of each year, as the Unis differ massively on how they deal with this. Some allow one resit, some allow a resit and then repeat year once, some just say bye. It's a long course and lots can happen so nice to feel the Uni will treat you well if things don't always go to plan. Wasn't something DD thought about but having heard a few horror stories she says it's an issue that is worth considering.

Dissection, bit of protection, OSCEs from year 1.

We all need a bit of protection. Especially in dissection.

It's been a long day 😂. Far too many hyped up teenagers who seem to think Christmas spirit has started early. I needed some protection 😁

My interest is in Oxbridge medicine - sorry its a bit niche. But just wanted to inject some data and just a little opinion to the thread in case its useful to anyone.

FY1 jobs are currently allocated by a national system. Oxbridge, Imperial, UCL score highest on average. There are, however, major advantages to going to less well scoring unis, as currently a major part is by which decile you are in within the med school, and its easier to be a high decile at other unis. foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/sites/default/files/2019-07/2019%20Recruitment%20Stats%20and%20Facts%20Report_0.pdf

The speciality chosen seems to vary by uni. You are substantially less likely to apply to be a GP if you go to Oxbridge, for example (probably not a good thing on a national scale!). foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/sites/default/files/2019-07/2019%20Recruitment%20Stats%20and%20Facts%20Report_0.pdf

Doctors exam results are all published. Oxford and Cambridge do substantially better in both the written and clinical/communication exams. About half is thought to be due to them recruiting smarter people to begin with, about half is due to unknown factors i.e. probably the uni's teaching. www.gmc-uk.org/education/reports-and-reviews/progression-reports
bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-6-5

Going to Oxbridge probably does help you if you want to exit medicine, both in terms of going into research and in terms of going into the city or whatever. It probably is helpful if you want to go into private work - patients there get very snobby - and it is definitely helpful if you want to work abroad in many countries. For example Singapore actually releases a list of acceptable med schools, which includes only about half of UK unis! www.healthprofessionals.gov.sg/docs/librariesprovider2/default-document-library/second-schedule---registrable-basic-medical-qualifications.pdf

Anecdotally, Oxbridge is noticeably harder work. However, it has substantially more resources to look after its students with and holidays are a lot longer in the first 3 years so it is necessarily more intense.

There seems to be this notion that if you have early clinical contact its completely different to 'traditional' courses. Actually look at how much 'contact' they actually mean - it is often something like one afternoon per fortnight, or a single one week placement then back to the lecture halls - its not like how I would envision it! And even the most traditional do have some clinical contact early. It can be as little as an afternoon every 8 weeks (Oxbridge), but that might actually not be so different!

I actually think student satisfaction ratings are very telling, as long as they are being consistent. For example, Sheffield always does well, King's always does abysmally (bottom for 6 out of the last 8 years, and 3rd from bottom for the other two) and some of the anecdotes of how they treat their students are shocking. If it was my dc, I would be avoiding King's based on that alone.

BUT these are all relatively minor considerations. Most important is 1) will you get in - that's the difference between being a doctor and not, and a good 60% of applicants get in nowhere at all, and 2) Do you like the course structure - medicine is, contrary to popular belief, incredibly varied in terms of its course style and also content and you'll be doing it for 5/6 years so you better like it! Only after that, do other considerations come in.

I got no help at all when applying to medicine all those years ago, and I feel that even those that profess to know a lot, actually can have false impressions and be out of date. I had no idea FY1 applications were so standardised, I had no idea that the courses varied so much.

I was actually talking to a sixth-former on Tuesday about the King's student satisfaction issue. She was very well informed about some of the reasons why it scores so poorly, so she was making a rational decision about applying there. I have come across a few who are choosing it purely on reputation, though, and I worry a bit that they will in turn become the students who give King's such poor ratings in the National Student Survey.

Things like the NSS need to be looked at over a few years, though. While King's is consistently rated poorly (and Liverpool not an awful lot better), places like Nottingham might have a single year of doing very poorly and then jump right up the ranking again the following year. Sometimes this can be influenced by a one-off event that happened to affect final-year students just before the NSS poll. Students' unions will also use it as a weapon, advising students to give poor feedback because of issues not related to the questions in the survey (lack of parking availability, half-hearted commitment to environmental issues, no efforts at decolonization, etc.), although the number of students who actually take any notice of what the union says is probably quite small in most universities. (I'm speaking as a former students' union elected officer.)

One Uni told us their low ranking the previous year was because they had replaced the chairs in the lecture theatre and they were uncomfortable. Most students don't fill it it.

"Oxford and Cambridge do substantially better in both the written and clinical/communication exams. About half is thought to be due to them recruiting smarter people to begin with, about half is due to unknown factors i.e. probably the uni's teaching."

That's of course, Oxford and Cambridge's fantasy dreams. The best medical students don't go to Oxford or Cambridge to learn or do Medicine - not in the last decade or so years as far as I'm aware including this <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/11/2019-Recruitment-Stats-and-Facts-Report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiT6Km6tMXmAhWQXsAKHVejAoQQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0XUHxIv9QAEsNhvTUd2iNk" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">(pg. 18) latest two years' factual publication!

"For example Singapore actually releases a list of acceptable med schools, which includes only about half of UK unis!"

Like the despicable and born-losers Remoaners of the Brexit saga that had hijacked the country in the last three-and-a-half years (thank Heavens they're now completely erased from the surface of this earth), you're negatively putting down the capabilities of British medical schools just because "only about half" of British med schools are "acceptable" to Singapore.

The fact of the matter is that many of these British med schools had been teaching Medicine when Singapore itself was nothing more than a mangrove swampy island infested with mosquitoes with a few scattered fishing huts standing on stilts and their inhabitants relying on nothing more than coconut husks and bamboo leaves for medicine plus some voodoo chants performed by the island's bomohs.

But as it turns out, the Singapore list of acceptable British med schools is more than three-quarters (25) of all British schools - not only about half as you suggested - and this number is only about a dozen schools fewer compared to the USA, a first-world country which is 40 times larger than the UK!

Having just helped my mum through several medical procedures, all done privately, I can say that I do not know where any of them trained. Could not care less. All were kind and caring with my dear old mum and I am very grateful to them. Why would I need to know where they studied ?

Hi Op - my child is now an F1 from the last Cambridge cohort to be allowed to go to London for their clinical years if they wished, so perhaps better qualified than most of those on this thread to talk about differences between Cambridge and London courses. In fact I'm told they dont differ as much as you might think. Clinical contact does exist in the early years at Cambridge, it's just quite limited. There are opportunities for those who wish to increase that, not many students take those opportunities. It really isnt much different at Imperial and UCL where the courses are quite academic in the early years. Also some London students have a reputation for not turning up to placements, perhaps because they are more likely to need a part time job to fund the higher costs, so the actual difference in clinical contact is even less than it seems. The short Oxbridge terms in the first 3 years mean Oxbridge is less expensive per year than many other medical schools, although you do have to do that extra year.

There was a medical student at Cambridge who intercalated in Law some years back, got a first and switched to law. So intercalation can open up opportunities for those who are maybe deciding medicine is not for them. A Cambridge degree would help a legal career, perhaps less than it did. At Cambridge intercalation does tend to be seen as a slightly "lighter" workload year, although obviously still a demanding course.

Those who intercalate usually get an extra point or more (depends on class of degree) when applying for F1 posts. That doesnt seem much but because the results cluster (lots of people with pretty close results) can make a difference when applying for an F1 post. So its not surprising that on average universities where everyone intercalates do better at getting a choice of F1 post. However if you ace a somewhat unpredictable exam called the Situational Judgement Test you are likely to get your choice at F1 because half the points roughly come from that. Also not everyone wants the same rotation, fortunately, so rather more people get their choice of F1 post than you might think if you havent read nexttime4's links.

Some deaneries are very competitive, others less so. It's much easier to get your choice of F1 post in East Anglia or Scotland than in London. If you want to be an F1 in London its wise to start thinking early in your medical school about publications, conferences and intercalation. Other medical school students and junior doctors are a good source of advice.

When it comes to specialty exams there is a bit of a difference between medical schools. The overall pass rates can be quite low and applicants pay their own (high) entrance fees - think they are still tax deductible though.

Every year there are some apparently well qualified applicants who do not get any offers for medical school. Most who wish to do so will get a place if they reapply sensibly. I'm not sure of the current number of places but its supposed to be going up to 7,500 so it is by no means impossible for those with good GSCE, good A level predictions and the right choice of subject to get a place - but a place is not guaranteed to those with good grades. To get through the training you need more than simply academic ability and the interviewers know this.

Good luck to those students applying . You can often get better information on the Student Room website than you get on mumsnet. Medical schools do change their requirements and current applicants will include some who are very well informed.

Dd is a current first year at imperial. They have a full day per fortnight at a GP practice. She is also doing voluntary work at a local hospital once a fortnight on a paediatric ward to increase her patient contact time - she’s really enjoying this. She believes that the amount of patient contact time in year two is similar, then in year three they have three x ten week hospital placements. They have revamped the programme at imperial this year so that might well be tweaked though x

Think most programmes have been revamped in last few years. Most have much more of a practical element earlier - and not turning up for a placement would mean failing (unless have a v good excuse !). They are not optional. DD was taking her own consultations on last GP placement, obviously checked, but she did the preliminary exam and took histories. She loved it. Hospital placements allow them to practice their OSCE skills on real patients. All helps build that bedside manner.

mumsneedwine are you sure you are correct?

I don’t have a background in medicine but am aware, like in anything else, some will try to cut corners and appear to get away with it.

Well my 2nd year tells me that's what she's doing. She only took patient histories and did basic exams and then passed on to GP and I am v sure they checked her work thoroughly ! She just enjoyed the patient contact. She works as an HCA in holidays so does some of this there too.
I think everyone who embarks on a medical career is amazing as the responsibility is huge.

Hi All - loads of info on this thread so thank you all!

DD is adding to her spreadsheet and researching Medical Schools so that she takes everything into account and applies strategically when the time comes. So far we are have the following criteria:

(1) UCAT or BMAT
(2) How the PS is used (e.g. marked or discussed at interviews)
(3) Type of interview
(4) Do they score GCSE grades
(5) Required A level predicted grades
(6) Type of teaching - PBL, traditional, intergrated
(7) How the Uni's handle re-sits while you are on the course - can you re-sit an exam/year etc or would you be kicked off the course
(8) Intercalation - mandatory, optional, can be done at another uni
(9) Weighting given to each part of the application
(10) Campus or city university

I'm sure there are more things to consider - please let me know what we are missing!

Also - what are your DC thinking re the 5th course choice on a UCAS form? DD is torn between leaving it blank as she thinks she would have a gap year and re-apply, but also consideirng putting Biochemistry.

Thanks!

Mine put a 5th just so she got an early offer - helped her confidence. She ended up having 2 offers from Sheffield, Medicine and an MSc in Genetic something But youngest has not put one for vet med as knew she wouldn't use it regardless. I'd say put one as last year we had a student who got 4 rejections and then Lancaster said they had extra spaces. He could only apply if he had been rejected or turned down all his 5 original offers. So he chose a stupid choice, turned it down, had an interview at Lancaster at Easter and got an offer the day of his biology A level.

PS Happy Xmas

@LaLaFlottes mine considered hours from home and dissection/prosection. Although she only applied to dissection unis and that didn’t turn out as she expected! Accommodation cost could be another variable

PBL vs traditional vs integrated isn't a very useful classification (see posts on previous page and at top of this one). All - or very nearly all - medicine course are integrated.

@mumsneedwine thank you - I think she should put down a 5th choice - there’s no harm in it is there and it seems it could come in useful!

@HostessTrolley thank you - we will add those criteria to our list. Is your DD at Imperial? I think I read your post about them changing at the last minute re dissection.

@SirTobyBelch - thank you I will re-read the posts you mention. DD doesn’t seem at all keen on PBL though so maybe we’d still be best to try and filter out the universities that use that method predominantly? Or maybe it’s all quite irrelevant if they all use a mixture!

Thanks all- keep the info coming and Merry Christmas to everyone.

Have been away from Mumsnet for a while dealing with RL aging parents issues, but pleased to see a medicine 2021 thread. DS has gone off Oxbridge precisely because he now thinks he wants more early patient contact. He started doing 4 A levels, maths, chemistry, biology and physics, but dropped physics in the first few weeks, as he wasn't enjoying it and switched to an EPQ on various issues relating to the NHS, which he is loving, especially as it has been so topical in terms of the general election, and another of his interests, which is politics. He did a work placement/ shadowing in A&E (he shadowed both in general A&E, and paediatric A&E, and discovered he loved working with the children). He is now, finally, about to do his training with the St Johns Cadets (after being on the waitlist for over three years), and is excited about going out with them. So very keen to get hands on.
I would be very interested to understand exactly how much more patient contact one gets at the different medical schools, to try and make sure he is making sensible choices. At the moment, from spreadsheet alone, he is leaning towards Bristol, Leeds, Sheffield and maybe Cardiff (think nine 8/9 should get an interview??). Hasn't yet been to see anywhere except Oxford. Doesn't want London as we live there (not sure if that is sensible, but that is what he wants), and thinks Scotland is too far. Not sure which universities allow/ require incalcation. Except that I think it is optional at Bristol. And Sheffield seems to have a funny half one (is that right?). Really keen on hearing information on these medical schools and others we might have not have thought about. Heard horror stories about there being a 50% drop out rate at Birmingham (which might have been another option, anybody know if this is true or just a myth????). Anybody know the drop out rate for the above medical schools, and the rules on resits (as suggested above). What any Manchester, it seems to rarely get mentioned.

Hi I have one in 4th year and one in 1st year. Obviously excellent UKCAT is a must.
My feeling is that grade requirements are softening. Also there are several new medical schools so there are more places available compared to 3or 4 years ago.
Some unis also do contextual offers if the student falls into certain demographics so look into these to see if they apply.
At Keele they said they were finding the new A levels weren’t giving comparative grades to prior years so were going from A star AA to AAA or even AAB for offers for 2020. Ds didn’t get an offer after the interview initially but was contacted the week before results with an offer which he accepted (outside of UCAS) and then overnight before results day he received a congrats you’re in email. He got AAB.
My older dc also found that grade requirements softened between offer and results, (dropped from A Star to A) but basically AAA predicted grades are a minimum to get an interview,
Keele also do a basic maths test with their interview.
Some unis also ask for references from work experience and a brief statement about what the candidate learnt/found rewarding from it.
I would disagree with who ever said they don’t ask about the personal statement in Keele they said they will ask about it and specifically said they view embellishment of achievements very poorly.
Find out if they do panel or mmi interviews as preparation is key. Also look into the way the course is taught - problem or case based learning or more traditional and if they have cadavers or pro sections for anatomy.

It's worth bearing in mind that there's likely to be increasing pressure on early clinical experience in the next few years, especially in general practice. With GP practices closing at an alarming rate in many areas of the country, and with increasing numbers of students in a larger number of medical schools, it's unlikely that the current level of provision of placements in early years can be kept up. The focus will have to be on getting students in later years essential patient experience. The amount hospital trusts are paid by the NHS for training medical students is also being squeezed, and along with other financial pressures and understaffing this is also likely to lead to fewer hours of patient contact even for 4th/5th-year students.

When the most recent wave of expansion of medical school places was announced by Jeremy Hunt (remember him?), it was carefully timed so that the extra students would be reaching their clinical years after the next general election, and consequently there was no money budgeted for their clinical training. Theresa May (remember her?) blew everything apart by calling the election in 2017, which then brought the clinical years into the period of that parliament, but there was still no budget for this. Now we've had yet another general election but I still don't think any money will be allocated to pay for the additional demand on clinical placements by the extra medical students.

You may also remember that we were supposed to have 5,000 more GPs by 2020. Well, 2020 is about to begin and we currently have about 150 fewer GPs than we had when that promise was made. The Conservatives promised during the 2019 election campaign that we would have 6,000 more GPs by 2024/25. That won't happen either.

@LaLaFlottes yes, she’s first year at imperial. During the application process and even on the offer holder day they were told that there were changes being made to the curriculum but dissection was staying. In week 3 of the course they were told that dissection had been removed.

She was very unhappy as she’d only applied for unis with dissection, and is likely to have taken one of her other offers if she’s known that dissection was being taken out of imperial’s programme. However by the end of the first term she’s enjoying the course immensely, she says it’s hard work with a high workload relative to her non-medic flatmates, but is very happy with the course and the uni.