Medicine 2021

[Millylovespuddles]

Hi all
It looks like there’s no medicine 2021 entry thread yet, so it might be an idea to get the ball rolling.
My DD is getting stuck into her A level course, doing well so far, but I’m guessing we parents could do with some mutual support and advice from parents who’ve been here before.

UEA has the best hit rate of first place F1 positions last year.

DS got his first choice of deanery and his top option for F1 jobs within that (London) deanery, so Oxford must be doing something right. He also had a fab (although quite hard work) six years at Oxford, so not for the faint hearted I guess.

mumsneedwine you're a bit hung up on F1 id you don't mind my saying. There's a long, long life after F1.

You really are an unpleasant person goodbye. I'm off, sorry OP. Not sure where I mentioned boozing or snogging (although both very nice pastimes I'm sure my educationally stunted DD has managed to fit in to her medical education).

Sorry forgot link Edgi.

foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/sites/default/files/2018-07/Stats%20and%20Facts%20FP%202018_0.pdf

But where is that information about F1 placements ?
Also, even though my DD is interested about medicine she has no idea of how doctors succeed in securing the positions they want later on. All this important information is not available.
Also, l understand that Oxford is ranked no 1 in the world for medicine. Surely that is somehow reflected in how their students are viewed? Does it really play no part in their selection for jobs?

Blanket apology for crappy typing.

mumsneedwine you dominate these medical threads and punctuate your anti 'traditional' stance with a lot of very funny comments about copious alcohol consumption etc but actually perhaps time is up and people do need to have a more balanced view other than the myopic one about how all doctors are equal. Or perhaps my recent experience of really poor quality ego tripping doctors is affecting my view. I accept that you may find that view unpleasant but these threads are about real advice for upcoming applicants, not about jokey jokes relating to alcohol, snogging etc and they shouldn't peddle that lie that all courses are equal and once qualified with the bit of paper that all doctors are equal. Not unpleasant at all, but just a bit fed up.

Egdo you're quite right to ask the question. These threads have become incredibly shallow in the past two or so years and are all about getting a med school place (the difficulty of which is wildly over hyped) and how all doctors are equal by dint of the GMC registration. Certain posters in the past couple of years have dominated these threads and there's been no wider discussion. I hope others will join the thread to answer your questions. It isn't all about F1, it's about the whole career.

Oops sorry: Egdi

A lot is about fit.

How do you learn. What interests you etc.

DD was at a selective academic (absolutely not ‘posh’, the two can be very different) private school where 4 A levels was the norm, and some, like her, took five. To be honest most medics from her school went onto BMAT courses in London or Oxbridge, presumably because the more academic slant appealed. DD in contrast is on one of the most hands on courses, in part because she is very dyslexic and essay writing is not her thing.

However she is academic, which is why I suggested upthread that courses that allow a good choice in intercalation options can be a good middle ground. Who knows whether she gets her first choice of F1, but my and her guess is that spending a year studying something that interests her at a leading national centre, will not be wasted.

In terms of more hands on courses, I would throw up a couple of words of warning, albeit in the context that communication is a really key skill and building these skills early does no harm. If a lot of early learning is happening in hospitals, you do need study and professional skills in place from the get-go. It really is important to turn up on time, to observe, and to contribute actively to group work. DD is lucky as she learns by listening and observing rather than from books, and has a good memory, but she can see some struggling with the switch from a prescriptive approach used in schools, to something less structured with placements run by medical rather than academic staff.

She is loving it and has no regrets. However equally she is looking forward to returning to something more straightforwardly academic during her intercalation year.

Thanks for the link mumsneedwine.
However, l am struggling to make any conclusions based on the attachment. It seems that the BMAT schools do better on average in the FP scores (l’ve yet to have a detailed read to understand what this is) but they aren’t the most successful in getting their F1 preferences. Belfast and Scottish schools seem to be more likely to get their preferences.
I assume this is because Oxford students are all trying for the same coveted spots?
I find the whole thing around medicine so opaque regarding merit. All l ever hear about is that “oh it doesn’t matter where you do this or that”...
It certainly doesn’t feel that way for my DD looking at the rejection rates for BMAT schools. Why are they so popular if it doesn’t matter? I find it all so confusing and lacking transparency with regard to long term career outlooks. If DD wants to be a brain surgeon or a heart transplant doctor person then what decides this?
And why doesn’t anyone else want to know this?

Egdi Any trainee from whatever medical school can get ahead in their chosen speciality if they have sufficient focus, stamina and the right personal attributes to be good at it and play to their strengths. For example cardiac and neurosurgery require a combination of physical dexterity and mental toughness.

So the choice of medical school does n’t restrict speciality. A lot of medical students want to see the relevance of their training early on and an immediate apprentice style learning can provide that. Also personal circumstances and life balance rather than ability and training may be the dominant factor in what sort of doctor somebody chooses to be

However IMO since they will be doctors for a long time, starting off with 3 years of just doing academics and being a straightforward student rather than an apprentice is no bad thing especially if they like their science. Some medical schools have more well funded research and therefore access to some really good science for learning basics in research. There is a lot to be said for being taught a rigorous and logical scientific approach. This will be really valuable to properly understand and critically appraise future developments with publications including those therapies and tests that involve cutting edge science and technologies such as immunotherapies.

Also with regards Oxford and Cambridge courses, having to produce frequent essays may seem a diversion to learning clinical skills but as a result IME Oxbridge trained clinicians generally find it much easier to rapidly produce well written documents. These are not just needed in academic medicine but also for business cases or audit reports or teaching material or even for appraisal. So churning out weekly science essays is hard work as an undergraduate but pays off by saving time later when faced with a written communication task.

This thread is a mine of information. Many thanks.
All the information my DD has is about getting into med schools. She knows nothing about the career progression, F1 placements. All we hear on open days is about selection, interviews etc
At school they really push “it doesn’t matter which med school” line. That’s all fine but l find that all the pertinent information about long term career options is lost. Please keep the information coming. Imperial/ UCL anyone?

Egdi,

Oxford medic's advice is good.

Our experience is that even doctors have their prejudices, and so can give contradictory advice. One London consultant claimed that the Imperial F1s she had were streets ahead of the Cambridge ones, especially when it came to communicating with patients and dealing with NHS bureaucracy. Whereas a Cambridge educated friend was raving about how much science background and understanding their Cambridge educated F1 had, and is rather sniffy about DDs course. DD says that some of the very best on her course came through the foundation programme, not least because a good Bristolian accent does no harm when communicating with patients.

It is about fit.

UCL and Imperial (BMAT) are different mainly because they are in London and because they do not offer the same strict divide between preclinical and clinical. However they also offer six year courses, whilst KCL and QMUL (UKCAT) allow intercalation. DD, who ran across a bunch of Imperial students at a conference (conferences are a good way to extend knowledge in an area of interest and again it does not matter which medical school you are at) said their course seemed a lot more science heavy. Again like Oxbridge, there is a lot of research going on: www.bidwells.co.uk/faqs/what-is-the-golden-triangle-in-the-uk/ (There are some phenomenal new science research centres in London, but again lots of intercalation options there.)

Like Oxbridge they can select/attract some of the more academic of the cohort.

DD is at Bristol, where it is unusual to have more than three A levels. This would not be the case had she gone to Oxbridge/London. Strangely Bristol used to have a reputation for rejecting some very academic applicants who then sailed into Oxbridge. The course offers lots of early clinical exposure which she loves. She is far happier doing than writing. Bristol also has a varied catchment ranging from proper inner-city to very rural with market towns and sea-side towns, with an aging population, thrown in, plus a couple of very good teaching hospitals/regional centres so may offer a better all round experience than, say London.

There is a huge range of roles in medicine. DDs dyslexia, practical skills and ability to retain knowledge means she is more likely to find herself in a high-paced "think on your feet" job than one which requires a lot of report writing. Her course plus a targeted intercalation should get her where she wants to go.

Her closest friend has always wanted to be a GP. Though she is eligible, she does not want to intercalate, not least that sixth year is expensive and means that you are a further year away from actually earning. The course is perfect for her, but again had she gone to Oxford there is nothing that would have prevented her from becoming a GP.

My advice would be to go to some convenient open days to get a feel for what different courses offer. You won't know where to apply to until you have UKCAT and BMAT (if taken early) results, but it is useful to know what appeals. And then not to worry too much. If you know where you want to get to, as Oxfordmedic suggests, and you have the skills and application, you probably can get there from any medical school.

In short - don't worry too much.

Oxfordmedic always gives good advice Needmoresleep.

It's useful to re-introduce Oxbridge courses on these threads. Obviously some DC will have whistled themselves out with too few A* at GCSE, but for those with the grades it's an option which has a lot of advantages. Not purely in terms of the science and longer term career but in terms of six years in a beautiful place with a lot of extra curricular opportunities to balance life also the big advantage of not having to flog too far for placements, as mumsneedwine mentioned as a pretty key criterion further up the thread.

But if a negative mindset type question but....does the BMC keep a record of how many doctors drop out if the profession after F1/2 or before consultancy? If there’s a high risk of leaving the profession, then l would imagine a degree from Oxford, Imperial etc might be an important factor when wishing to move to some other area. Shows the pedigree of education etc
Do many drop out after intercalated degree or 1st degree from Oxford l wonder? I think it’s a good idea to have as many options as possible in case you discover it’s not for you after all. None of these factors being thought about by my DD at all. All she and her peers seem to think about is the likelihood of getting in and not wanting to be the one with no offers. She says she’ll think about that when she gets an offer.

Anecdotally some drop out, especially from the more academic courses (Oxbridge/London) presumably because there are more options than working for the NHS. Others will go to work in Australia or NZ or into BUPA. My Cambridge educated friend realised that at the age of 35 she was the only one of her friendship group still practising. The others had "married well" and so did not need to work.

However do not go into medicine without really thinking this is what you want to do. There are quicker and more sensible ways of getting to other places. If need be take a gap year and work in a hospital.

That said DD claims a few of her peers have realised they don't want to be medics. The advantage of a more vocational course is that you work this out pretty quickly, most probably by the end of the first year. For her it has been the reverse. She is loving her course (not all - she finds psychiatry quite overwhelming) and so early patient contact has helped reinforce her vocation. My guess is that if she had had three years of academic study (and her school reckoned she was a realistic Oxbridge applicant) she would be wavering more.

If there’s a high risk of leaving the profession, then l would imagine a degree from Oxford, Imperial etc might be an important factor when wishing to move to some other area. Shows the pedigree of education etc

Not commenting on that last bit, but... tbh, wanting to go to Oxbridge is not getting an offer from either university. Wanting to study Medicine is not getting an offer of a place at medical school. Plenty of perfectly good candidates get only one offer, or even no offers at all the first time round. So whereas there is nothing to stop someone having a dream aim of achieving a combination of the two, your DD considering where she would be most likely to get an offer, assuming that her main desire is to use her medical training to practise as a doctor (in whatever area) really is the most sensible way of going about it.

If she makes the decision that undertaking her training at a specific medical school is the most important aspect and she does not succeed at the first attempt (even if she has offers elsewhere), then there is nothing to stop her from trying again (and again...). Except, perhaps, if the school(s) concerned do not accept reapplicants, of course.

Btw, do you mean the BMA (British Medical Association, sort of medical trade union), or the GMC (the medical regulatory body)? The latter is responsible for maintaining the medical register.

Sorry showing my ignorance of all things Medical. I think l meant the GMC.
Of course l would like her to go to Oxford or Cambridge or Harvard and win Wimbledon and the Booker prize ha ha
However, l don’t think she would get in. She has all A stars at GCSE but she doesn’t have any ambition to go therefore is unlikely to. She is very much of the mind that anywhere that will have her she will be happy to go. I’d like her to think a bit more carefully and to have a get out option. She might think very differently in a few years. I don’t think she’s totally suited to it but what can you do? A few weeks work experience is very different from a full time job. She is keen and can only see the excitement and benevolence. I could be wrong.

Egdi you don't need an ambition to go to Oxford. All you need to do is have the grades - which your DD already has in the bag - fill in the name on the UCAS form, take the BMAT, show up to interview. That's no more (form, aptitude test and interview) than is required elsewhere. It really is that simple.

Personally, DD is more interested in making the right uni choices to achieve the best chances of an offer. She has a vague idea of what she’d like to focus on, but it is so far away, she isn’t bothered right now.
Does anyone have any experience of Leeds?

Milly our DD is the same, trying to weigh up options to have the best chance of a place. I’m sure more knowledgeable people will come along but for what it’s worth people from Leeds medical school came to DD’s college to speak to the future medics club and DD got a really good impression of the place and wants to go and see it.
They use BMAT rather than UCAT too so perhaps an option if they end up doing better in that exam?
Definitely one we are going to look into more.

Another thing DD has been wondering about is intercalated degrees. Some universities seem to make it mandatory, some optional, some you can’t study elsewhere for that hear and other universities make you stay with them. So quite a lot of differences!
In some ways having it optional might be best?

Any thoughts?

Hi LaLa. I think having an optional intercalated year can be a good thing as they can easily change their minds about doing one during the course. Cost comes into it too as it's an extra year of fees and funding that not everyone has. But some places let you do it abroad (Liverpool in China for example) so could be a fun year. So many decisions for them.
And Leeds is fantastic according to DDs friend who is there. Lots of that snogging and drinking. Oh and a modern integrated course which her friend is enjoying.