The "Durham difference" - huge bias towards Private schools

[mummymeister]

I have just been to the open day at Durham Uni with one of my DC. I have other children in Uni and at various stages of education but have never felt so incredibly angry before.

My DC wants to study a subject in the Classics department. There was a last minute room change which meant we missed a talk and had 50 minutes to kill so I looked at some stats and wished I hadnt!

66% of the 100 students taken by the Classics department come from Private education. In the "real world" only 6% of students are privately educated.

When I challenged the admissions officer about this massive bias against state pupils she just ummed and erred with no real idea of a plan but kept saying that they were "working on trying to improve this"! Sorry but this is just not good enough imo. And to make it even worse this year the figure has gone up by nearly 2% so clearly what they have been doing has made stuff all difference.

They seem to put great store on reading all applications and personal statements so this is clearly where something needs to be done. I know many parents of children in private schools so I know how much time, effort and money is spent on making sure that the personal statement is perfect. No such help at our state school.

My DC will meet the predicted grades but honestly am just not sure I want them to be somewhere so incredibly elitist. It feels like a waste of a choice to me.

I guess I thought we were moving towards a level playing field and that the school you went to didnt really matter but clearly at Durham it does. I cant be the only parent that feels like this can I? I am unsure what to do next, whether to write in and express these feelings again or just to accept that life isnt fair.

I wouldn’t have thought there was a bias at all - it is just that a lot of comprehensive schools don’t teach Latin and Greek?

Ah yes, but Newcastle has not the clubbing delights of Klute and Rixy's or whatever bits latest incarnation is called 😁

As with a degrees you're supposed to read the content before applying.

My state educated mate did classics at Durham. Her year 1 was a hard slog as she had to.leatn Latin to a good standard but she was fine....went onto a good degree and masters in the subject.

So it's not all indy kids there by any stretch.

@gruffalosfriend I turned down Durham as an option because you were only able to dig into the mechanics of the degree on offer once into the application process and you have greater access to students and materials. I was applying in early 2000s when you couldn’t just google it all.

However, what surprised me when I was asked to go for a lectureship a few years ago - for the same subject - was that very little had changed in that time.

but how would a young person chose a subject they’d not been exposed to? You’d have no idea whether you’d be any good at it.

Obviously the young person would need to be open to something new rather than tried and tested - though to an extent all subjects at degree level are new territory.

DD4 has has no exposure to Latin at all during her state (albeit grammar) education but saw a Cambridge University poster which had been put up on the wall of her sixth form centre which was incredibly simple ('Do you like Art, Language, History, Literature') but equally effective as far as DD was concerned. She's a strong linguist it has to be said but also an all rounder. She just got a few books and started to read and at the same time looked at Latin grammar books and is now teaching herself the basics (to GCSE) and applying for 2020. She can't know if she'll be good but did one of the Oxford aptitude papers (the CAT) yesterday (in the garden in the sunshine) and only made two mistakes (but the sample paper is probably an easy one, so as not to put people off). So that sort of thing can give an indication.

I think that's simply the sort of process any young person goes through with a new subject. I don't see that they need to be led by school or a parent there just needs to be any chance thing - like the poster - which can set them thinking.

As far as large comps and languages go, the key word there is large. Large is good in terms of subject offer.

Incidentally it doesn't seem to be correct that all or even lots of the good unis offer Classics ab initio. I was surprised when DD4 came back from the school trip to the local UCAS convention saying that, given that she's not keen on going to London for undergrad which would increase the numbers, she only has six unis in total to choose from.

Choosing the best university course and environment is up to the individual and their preferences.

What I object to are students narrowing or having to narrow down their choices, either because they have n’t even considered a subject due to a restricted education or due to the OP’s and some others on this thread ‘not for the likes of us’ mentality based on assumptions and anecdotes.

As a parent I would like to think I have encouraged an open mind with some curiosity to explore what is not part of familiarity.

" the admissions tutor at Glasgow Uni told me this is exactly what they do - it is policy that they do not read the personal statement as it just shows what opportunities were available to the young person, they go purely on grades"

Interestingly, at Newcastle they only look at personal statements for borderline students, even for medicine.

What is really tragic is that the state secondary around the corner employed tea hers who told the hildren that Latin was a dead language and learning it had no purpose!

Goodbyestranger it is curious that some universities like Exeter restric their pool of potential talented applicants by not offering an ab initio course.

Ohtheroses but that is also true of many MN posts. Education offered will reflect transmitted opinion.

Oh dear Conde, no, I never applied to Durham but have worked at Durham Uni for years and know what I'm talking about; I deal daily with students. So your sarcasm is unfounded. Clearly I've offended people by being rather blunt (note various other posters earlier said they found the place elitist, but were ignored). It's not not getting into Oxbridge that's the problem, but the sense of entitlement that hangs over many privately-educated students who end up here, who struggle with not having got their first choice which they assumed would happen. Many were heavily-pressured by their private school and their parents, who were then profoundly disappointed that their child has ended up at Durham having not got into Oxbridge. The student then feels 'not good enough', and dogged by negative feelings including mental health difficulties. Myrtle's husband has seen a wholly positive side of the University but my experience is different, hence I shared it. I'll shut up now for fear of offending people who don't want to hear anything negative. The Oxbridge problem is an elephant in the room here as is the difficulty many students have fitting in if they are not privately-educated/from the home counties, or if they are questioned about their lower entry grades by peers, if they came in on supported progression-type schemes. I deal with those students face-to-face and feel that Durham, despite its stellar reputation, has a way to go with inclusion. Absolutely state school kids need to keep applying and coming here and hopefully the Uni will improve its management of those issues, and its support. If people don't like to hear my current and direct experience, we'll all pretend it's lovely and fair and there are no problems....

I know a handful of state educated students at Durham who love it. I know of one ex student who hated it at Durham, and I think she had some kind of breakdown. I also know some would be students who had looked at Oxford and Durham for open days, and found Oxford very welcoming, and I'm afraid Durham, rather snobby (their words, not mine).

Basically a cross section of what students will find at any university I would have thought.

To be fair to clairwy1, there has been a poster on the Oxbridge and Durham threads whose DC sounds as though he would go to Durham with profoundly negative feelings about the place, which is incredibly sad.

I enjoyed Durham enormously when I was there and my DS is extremely happy there too, but I do recognise the syndrome being described, although from a student perspective I wouldn't describe it as pervasive. Perhaps clairwy1's role means that she sees more of that sort of student than the typical member of the uni.

I studied at Durham @clairwy1 and am very working class. I went as a mature student with children so was even less typical. Never felt out of place. I did notice quite a few of the independent school pupils seemed far less capable of independent thought. It was as is they had learned a view and were sticking to it. Wonderful university.

I think private and state pupils can and often do have independent thought although it was hard when we conservatives tried to bring Tory ministers to give talks at my Northern University as students as now do tend to get set views such as Tories out or whatever. I suppose the yoing are always more likely to be socialist and change as htey get older.

I found my uncle's Durham paperwork from 1936 by the way recently . - he read medicine there.Interestingly the cost was £9000 in terms of fees once inflation since then is accounted for which is almost exactly the current student fee/loan for the fee element. By the time my father came to go there 10 years later his own father was so old - nearly 70 that he could not afford for my father to read medicine so he did a BSc instead but luckily grants then came out after WWII so my father after graduating moved straight into his medical degree so he had 3 years BSc, then about 6 medicine and was doing exams until he was over 30 financially supported in part for about 8 years by my teacher mother.

As pps have pointed out, your anger is misdirected, mummy.

Highly selective universities like Oxford, Cambridge and Durham would love to get credible state-school applications in higher numbers. They do whatever they can to admit as many as possible, cf contextual offers.

If you look at how the pool system at Cambridge works, the less-subscribed colleges often end up taking a higher ratio of privately-educated students because they dip into the pool more often. This is because the more popular colleges, looking at two equally qualified applicants, would prefer to take the state-school student.

Universities say there won't be proper equality until it is addressed properly in schools. That might mean, in the case of your DC, providing a wider spread of subjects at GCSE and A level.

but as everyone on here seems to agree that there is an inequality between state and private education, shouldnt the uni be doing more/ different things to make that less so or should it just be down to the schools system.

It's a government thing. Many working class students don't see uni as an experience but almost like an apprenticeship so they often go for subjects like nursing that lead to a set career. A couple of generations ago they would have gone to the nursing school at their local hospital. They would have earned while working and learning.

The way to change this? Give huge grants to students from state schools to go to elite universities and to take courses like classics. Insist the wlit unis have a 'foundation year' for students unable to take Latin or ancient history.

I’ve just been looking at the get into teaching website and interestingly there are substantial bursaries for those who wish to teach classics.

"Many working class students don't see uni as an experience but almost like an apprenticeship so they often go for subjects like nursing that lead to a set career."

I don't think this is restricted to working class students. Maybe those who are a little more pragmatic. I think that a lot of them know what they want career-wise and are looking at what they need to do to get there. Many of them are looking at engineering/medicine/other vocational degrees because that is what they genuinely want to do.

They are generally children of parents who have professional careers and are pretty middle class. The school DD went to is a good comprehensive in a "naice" area.

And I can assure you that many of DD's peers definitely wanted to go to university to enjoy the extra curricular activities and to delay getting a full time job for several years

Durham is not the only university with DC who didn’t get into Oxbridge and I would love to know what this percentage really is for the whole student body. It’s ridiculous to suggest its vast numbers because, quite simply, it just cannot be. The DC who don’t go to Oxbridge choose a variety of universities as second choice.

I think it’s not genuine to say disappointment and entitlement is the preserve of privately educated DC either. Many parents will have scraped the fees together. My DC were privately educated and I don’t recognise this trait in more than a very few parents and they were overwhelmingly from abroad or had ridiculous ideas in the first place. I can see why their DC might have issues but again saying this is confined to privately educated DC is, I would suggest, simply not true. Perhaps the MH stats could be shared based on type of school attended? Are these actually recorded I wonder?

Where I live, the most disappointed parents have DC at grammar schools who don’t make Oxbridge! The private schools tend to get more in and I have certainly found DC know more about their chances than many parents seem to. They are not disappointed with Durham or any other so called “Oxbridge failure” destination and I’m rather tired of DC being labelled in such a way if indeed they had aimed higher and not quite managed it. Good on them for trying! It is interesting that no sympathy is given to these young people at all and they are somehow less deserving because their parents earn more. That stinks in my view and any member of staff that thinks this should look very closely at their moral compass. These DC are 18.

Durham is not the only university with DC who didn’t get into Oxbridge and I would love to know what this percentage really is for the whole student body. It’s ridiculous to suggest its vast numbers because, quite simply, it just cannot be. The DC who don’t go to Oxbridge choose a variety of universities as second choice.

Durham is THE first choice Uni for lost of high achieving Northern students. Oxbridge isn't particularly accessible for those living in the North West or North East in terms of longer journey times, difficult/expensive train journeys etc. Yes, I know students don't come home too often., but it's still a barrier.

To say that Durham is basically a consolation prize for those not getting into Oxbridge is really quite insulting to all those who go there who didn't even apply for Oxbridge!

Of the students I know who went to Durham, all but one of them had it down as their first choice. DD wasn't interested in Durham as they don't offer the course that she wanted to do.

I agree and I know it’s first choice for many but clairewy1 was very certain that the DC with issues regarding ambition and failure and an air of entitlement were Oxbridge rejects and all from private schools. I know perfectly well Durham is the top choice for many so why get hung up on a tiny minority which is difficult to quantify anyway? Also even if you are disappointed - you are allowed to be! It doesn’t last forever and often is not defining the person at the end of the day. It’s a temporary blip. Most get over it!

Yes my experience at Durham was that almost all get over any disappointment very quickly - and as you say, why shouldn't young people be disappointed? It's not a crime - but it's a shame for those who go through the three years feeling that their intellect deserved affirmation somewhere better. I can't think of more than a couple of my peers who nursed that feeling of disappointment/ superiority after the first couple of weeks, but they're probably, ridiculously, still chippy. That's nothing to do with Durham of course and all to do with them. The couple I'm thinking of were also really not the cleverest by a very long way.

I can imagine that a high number of people who like the idea of a collegiate structure will have Durham on their list as well as Oxford/Cambridge. I'm sure there are also vast numbers who have Durham as their first choice.

When I asked a question yesterday that touched on the possibility of Durham being an insurance offer, the speaker looked genuinely dumbfounded that there would ever be a situation where they weren't number 1. It was a bit of a tumbleweed moment!

Why do you need to ask such a question though? I think it’s a bit rude to question other people’s intentions and, let’s face it, DC should be asking the questions. Parents, who seem to have bees in their bonnets, should possibly butt out. I guess the speaker was just fed up with the same old off topic rubbish question!