The "Durham difference" - huge bias towards Private schools

[mummymeister]

I have just been to the open day at Durham Uni with one of my DC. I have other children in Uni and at various stages of education but have never felt so incredibly angry before.

My DC wants to study a subject in the Classics department. There was a last minute room change which meant we missed a talk and had 50 minutes to kill so I looked at some stats and wished I hadnt!

66% of the 100 students taken by the Classics department come from Private education. In the "real world" only 6% of students are privately educated.

When I challenged the admissions officer about this massive bias against state pupils she just ummed and erred with no real idea of a plan but kept saying that they were "working on trying to improve this"! Sorry but this is just not good enough imo. And to make it even worse this year the figure has gone up by nearly 2% so clearly what they have been doing has made stuff all difference.

They seem to put great store on reading all applications and personal statements so this is clearly where something needs to be done. I know many parents of children in private schools so I know how much time, effort and money is spent on making sure that the personal statement is perfect. No such help at our state school.

My DC will meet the predicted grades but honestly am just not sure I want them to be somewhere so incredibly elitist. It feels like a waste of a choice to me.

I guess I thought we were moving towards a level playing field and that the school you went to didnt really matter but clearly at Durham it does. I cant be the only parent that feels like this can I? I am unsure what to do next, whether to write in and express these feelings again or just to accept that life isnt fair.

My children are at a comp and Latin, Greek, Ancient History and Classical Civilization are not offered. I'm surprised that the private school percentage isn't higher- perhaps grammar schools offer those choices? History at my kids school is modern. Perhaps Modern History courses are more representative?
Aren't 60% of Oxbridge students privately educated?

Just to reply to a couple of points:

My DC is looking at Ancient History. Not classics. Most state schools teach History to GCSE and A level standard so it has nothing to do with teaching Latin. The stats on other courses at Durham dont make good reading either.

I am not over involved and did not embarrass my DC who asked me to raise the point in the presentation. I didnt. I waited until the end and did it discretely waiting until last to speak.

My DC will make their own choice about course, University etc. I have no problem with that. I have brought them up to be independent thinkers and speakers so if this is the one that's chosen, so be it.

there were a significant number of young people talking about putting Durham second for if they didnt get their A star to get into Oxbridge. i wonder that Durham wouldnt be more interested in people that positively wanted to go there as first choice rather than being also rans but thats their problem.

as a parent I think it is still my job to speak out about inequality and find it odd that others dont tbh.

The issue that I would really like to see them address, and they themselves do see it as an issue, is why so many state school pupils arent applying for a whole range of courses and why there is a disproportionate bias in all subjects towards the 6% in private education.

My personal view is that if they just based offers on GCSE and A level results only then there would be far less bias. Its the personal statements where the private school pupils seem to shine.

Well, its a good thing this isn't about you isn't it? Just let your son apply to where he wants? I think being an 'also ran' to Oxbridge is a pretty good place to be.

@mummymeister my DC wants to do History but Durham didn't inspire DC to study it there.

Fibbke - are you hard of reading?? I said, my DC (why are you assuming its a boy?) can apply to which ever Uni for whichever course they want. Just as each of my children has chosen their senior school, their GCSE choices and their A level choices. They are the ones that have to do the studying so they should make the choice.

dietcokeandchips - we had our lunch there and there were an awful lot of young people making similar comments. They send out a feedback form on the open day so here's hoping a number of them pass on the kind of comments I was hearing. The department admitted it was a real issue and one which they werent happy about yet dont seem willing to try and do anything about it.

I suspect most state school History syllabuses won't cover any of Ancient History - it's very much a private school type of era, so perhaps your ire should be directed at the limitations of state school teaching.

What you should have asked was the ratio of private vs state school applicants, and the respective offer rates. You would most probably have found that Durham offers relatively more state school applicants offers for Ancient History. You would though have lost the opportunity to have a go at the Admissions Tutor and post how biased Durham are on MN....

Your general point is valid but there are a couple of details that have to be considered:

66% of the 100 students taken by the Classics department come from Private education. In the "real world" only 6% of students are privately educated.

First of all, far larger numbers of students in independent and selective schools take A-levels in classical civilization, Latin, Greek etc., than in non-selective schools & colleges, so this particular prop0rtion - although high - isn't enormously surprising.

Secondly, the often-quoted 6-7% figure for students educated in private schools is misleading when applied to entry to competitive university courses. Most of these courses require A-levels; 13-14% of students studying for A-levels are in private schools, where the numbers taking BTEC and other qualifications are very low. While over 90% of over-16s in full-time education are in maintained schools & colleges, only about half of these are taking A-levels. [See www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/Images/420520-uptake-of-gce-a-level-subject-2016.pdf]

There is a big enough gap between 14% and 66% for you to base your argument on accurate figures rather than the ones sprayed around by internet & newspaper pundits.

The subject your son/daughter has chosen to study is in an area where the majority of applicants will be from private schools. That absolutely shouldn't put him/her off, if that's the subject he/she is interested in. While the level of private-school background probably won't be as high at other universities, it will still be well above 14%. It would be a real shame to let the preponderance of toffs on his/her preferred course be a deterrent.

Perhaps Durham attracts high achieving kids with over-invested liberal parents who love to complain?

None of the unis we've looked at had an obviously high level of moaning parents, perhaps you were unlucky.

Most GCSE History courses don't include an ancient history module. Our school
Studies Edexcel and Normans are as far back as they go. I believe that the A-level course is similar- the Tudors are as far back as they go. I suspect that if your History courses are biased towards modern history then you're most likely to pick modern history (a known quantity) over something that you may not know as much about.

If you focus on Sixth Formers, the percentage who are privately educated is 15%. Some unis are the backup for Oxbridge people and others take a big percentage of overseas students which dilutes the state school percentage.

Mummy meister - you have your stats wrong, anyway. 7% of school children are privately educated but that's across all age groups. At ages 16-18 it rises to 18%, so of all the young people studying A levels or equivalent , almost one-fifth are at a private school.

They don't need an A* for Oxford mummymeister.

I think you should look at what this is about and which subjects are taught at which schools in the main and then remove the big bee from your bonnet.

dietcoke different departments. Ancient History is taught within Classics.

Two DDs chose Durham as their insurance for Law, one for History, one DS preferred Bristol over Durham as his History insurance having been to the Durham Offer Holders' Day and another DS is at Durham now and loves it. DD4 has been to visit her brother several times and also really likes it so will apply. Each to their own. Lots don't like Durham, lots do.

Titchy - I did ask that question. the admissions tutor said that this was confidential information and that the only information in the public domain was on who they took as students not on applicants.

If anyone knows how I can find this out from the dot gov or other websites and could post a link I would be grateful. I cant find it though.

Their offer is AAA - not done on points so A*AB wouldnt be accepted and this was confirmed in the talk by the admissions tutor. There is a lot of interest in Ancient History amongst children not taught it due to various netflix and other programmes on Rome, Vikings etc over the past few years. Children arent just interested and enthusiastic about a subject just because they do it at school.

mummymeister AAA is the Oxford offer and Oxford might well reject an A*AB applicant on results day.

Thank you for the correction on numbers. The gap between 14-18% and 66% is still significant in my view.

I have no bees in my bonnet. I just wanted to make the point that of all the Uni's I have looked around with various children, looking at various courses this stood out.

I did a Masters at Durham in history department and it isn't somewhere I would ever chose to go again. Really not my cup of tea. I was congratulated on not having a Geordie accent as apparently it's "ghastly" said the person choosing to live in the North East 🤨 That's just my personal experience I know obviously it's a popular university.

I think Classics will always be a very high intake of private school students for the reasons other posters have pointed out. Other subjects will have a greater spread.

goodbyestranger - I was repeating conversations that we overheard during the day. Not just one student saying this, but many. I have no idea what the Oxford offer for this course is as my DC isnt applying there (as far as I know)

I studied something different at Durham, am state educated throughout, as left wing as they come and had a great time. Maybe being at a hill college helped?

I did learn at Durham that I wouldn't agree with everyone on everything and that is ok. I can still be friends with them.

If my mum had gone to an open day with me I would have been mortified but horses for courses I guess.

"66% of the 100 students taken by the Classics department come from Private education. In the "real world" only 6% of students are privately educated."

I went to Durham and yes it was somewhat biased in favour of private schools even then (a horrid 20 years ago.) I still enjoyed my three years, loved the city, liked the college system, and made friends, without having a private education.

But as a state school pupil, my (worst school in area, non selective) comprehensive didn't offer any GCSEs in any subject that allowed even moving on to a Classics A-level, just some basic teaching as part of English. The resources had to be concentrated on core subjects. I wasn't able to go on to do a Classics a-level (moving on to an FE College, where even my history A-level was nearly cancelled due to lack of interest) of any kind without a GCSE in the subject back then...and that meant moving on to a degree in the subject was just not practicable as the building blocks were not there.

It's not just about choice but the opportunities that are offered. That's something Durham can't really be entirely responsible for. And that's what grinds my personal gears - the usual differential in opportunities offered between state and private education. That's where my anger would be directed, and not just in Classics, either.

It's not a subject widely offered at state schools sovereignty the stats may well be skewed there. I know it's a uni popular with the privately educated - I work at a private school and it's often applied for. However, I used to work at a state school and there were plenty of Bright students there who were accepted and went off there.

My Dc doesnt study classics at their state school either and yes of course I can see this is as much about the opportunities afforded in each of the systems and the inequality there. but as everyone on here seems to agree that there is an inequality between state and private education, shouldnt the uni be doing more/ different things to make that less so or should it just be down to the schools system.

I’m impressed with their figures to be honest given how few state schools teach classics now.
And yes, stop going to open days with your kid. Trust me, this won’t be helping.

why on earth should I stop going to open days with my DC if they are asking me to go with them? I would say well over half, nearer 75% of students were there with one or more parent (and some with the whole family). I have other DC at Uni and going in September. I go with them if they want me to and dont if they dont. Its THEIR choice. Same as the senior school, GCSE's, A levels, gap year, sports, hobbies all their choices. IME my DC have gone on their own to offer days but again, if they ask me to go, I will.

dietcoke different departments. Ancient History is taught within Classics.

@goodbyestranger the joint hons of Ancient, Medieval and Modern History is taught within the History Dept.

I have never said Ancient History ( single hons) was taught within History.

Few state schools do Classics at GCSE or A level, so how can state school students discover the subject?
My son went to Durham (different subject) from a state school, and had no problems fitting in, etc

If your DC wants to study at Durham, and is likely to get the grades, then don't let your own prejudices deter him/her.