The "Durham difference" - huge bias towards Private schools

[mummymeister]

I have just been to the open day at Durham Uni with one of my DC. I have other children in Uni and at various stages of education but have never felt so incredibly angry before.

My DC wants to study a subject in the Classics department. There was a last minute room change which meant we missed a talk and had 50 minutes to kill so I looked at some stats and wished I hadnt!

66% of the 100 students taken by the Classics department come from Private education. In the "real world" only 6% of students are privately educated.

When I challenged the admissions officer about this massive bias against state pupils she just ummed and erred with no real idea of a plan but kept saying that they were "working on trying to improve this"! Sorry but this is just not good enough imo. And to make it even worse this year the figure has gone up by nearly 2% so clearly what they have been doing has made stuff all difference.

They seem to put great store on reading all applications and personal statements so this is clearly where something needs to be done. I know many parents of children in private schools so I know how much time, effort and money is spent on making sure that the personal statement is perfect. No such help at our state school.

My DC will meet the predicted grades but honestly am just not sure I want them to be somewhere so incredibly elitist. It feels like a waste of a choice to me.

I guess I thought we were moving towards a level playing field and that the school you went to didnt really matter but clearly at Durham it does. I cant be the only parent that feels like this can I? I am unsure what to do next, whether to write in and express these feelings again or just to accept that life isnt fair.

MyrtleWilson - You make me smile .

I know Durham Uni well, and it is packed with Oxbridge failures playing at that missed experience; the Colleges on the Bailey are sought-after as they look Hogwarts/Oxbridge-ish. It's all rather sad, and many individual students are dogged by it being their second choice.

Well I went there and had a great time As did pretty much all my friends I made there.

Really impressed by Durham today. Beautiful city and very friendly. DS1 and I got a bit lost near the Market Place and a lovely student (doing her shopping, not a guide) stopped and helped us. We toured Collingwood and Hatfield and the guides were very down to earth and engaging.

I simply didn't see any evidence of snobbery or stuck-upness. Lots of very normal families looking round and being friendly to each other.

Chemistry Department was inspiring without trying too hard (as York did last week). DS1 is definitely applying and says he'd be very happy there.

@clairwy1 did Durham reject you? How sad.

DS is applying to Durham. Not been to open day yet but DS says the course looks brilliant. Also applying to Oxbridge but Durham not a reject. It's another strong option.

I keep re-writing my response to your OP, @mummymeister, and then someone else posts something.

The short version, now, is that I wouldn't lose any sleep over any of this. Don't write to the university or do anything, really. You're not the one who's going to university. What matters is a) Does your DC want to go to that university? and b) Will your DC get the grades? If so, everything else is irrelevant. I was a university admissions tutor once upon a time for a university similar to Durham. My preference was for sixth formers who were bright, engaged, interested in the subject, and had a 'spark'. Maybe this is encouraged more at independent schools - but I don't know, because I never looked at what school they had been to. I just read the personal statements and interviewed them. This was 25 a few years ago.

And I can't remember who said upthread that "all independent schools aren't Eton", but that's bollocks, whoever it was. Eton is a spectacularly good school, but it's certainly not on some kind of snobby pedestal, lording it over all the other independent schools. I'm starting to think there ought to be a MN rule against commenting on a specific school unless you actually have DC there.

Had a useful day at Durham open day today. For the record, 80% of current students on DD1s preferred course are from state schools. As was at least one of the students who spoke about "the Durham Difference". I do agree that they should have had a range of colleges represented at that talk, though.

Also, the train was exactly the same length as it always is when I travel regularly on it to Edinburgh.

And I can't remember who said upthread that "all independent schools aren't Eton", but that's bollocks, whoever it was. Eton is a spectacularly good school, but it's certainly not on some kind of snobby pedestal, lording it over all the other independent schools. I'm starting to think there ought to be a MN rule against commenting on a specific school unless you actually have DC there.

I have waited an active-MN-posting lifetime to read exactly this post. Completely, brilliantly true.

It's not Durham's fault, but it is among the top universities who do have a high percentage of privately educated pupils, think it was about 33% last year. The problem lies with the education system in this country, it's not even about state v private, but the quality of education we offer to some of our young people. If you attend a private/grammar school it's pretty much certain you will achieve and aspire to go to a top uni. If your attending your average comp it's an uphill battle, poorer teaching, lack of careers advice, fewer role models, little inspiration, no money for extra tuition and it's the few who achieve. That's the problem we have in this country and it needs addressing as all our kids deserve an equal chance to go wherever they choose.

There is a problem with representation from state comprehensive at some top universities. That's why the Sutton Trust does outreach and there's summer schools etc.

However, classics is always going to be weighted towards privately educated applicants as it's only private schools and some grammars that offer latin/greek/classics background subjects.

I think you've got to let your DC make the right choice for them and leave the chip on your shoulder at the door unless you want your DC to get older and think 'I could have gone to a top uni but didn't because my parents made it clear I'd never fit in and it wasn't for people like me'.

Why aren't you angrier at state schools for not teaching it and therefore narrowing horizons at an early age.

DH went to a comp (70s) and went to Oxford He was horrified at how limited his education had been and insisted both children learnt Latin to GCSE (DS read Classics at Oxford). Latin was not available at any comp we looked at except for the very strict and formerly elitist cofe schools. There's the problem.

Could it be that more children from private schools then state schools are choosing to do the classics?

This is it exactly. I, too, was at Durham yesterday, and it was fully explained in a Maths subject talk. Their policy is to match the proportion of applicants from state/pension. So if, eg, on a particular course, twice as many applicants are from state schools, there'll be twice as many accepted onto the course. He was saying that in Maths, it was 80% state, 20% private because 80% of Maths applicants are from state school, so 80% of the offers are given to state school pupils. The Maths guy did say that in other subjects, I think he mentioned philosophy, it was 20/80 because only 20% of the applicants were from state school, so only 20% of places were given to state school applicants.

Sounds perfectly fair to me.

Second what a lot of posters have said about the lack of Latin and Greek at state schools affecting the stats. Durham actually has a really good beginners language programmes in Classics and makes it really easy to move between Classical Civilisation (where you don’t need the languages) and Classics degrees (where you do). You’ll get similar in all the top unis for Classics and Durham is actually quite good at ironing out the differences academically once people are there.

@thebuskerscat but how would a young person chose a subject they’d not been exposed to? You’d have no idea whether you’d be any good at it. In other countries which don’t have a strong independent sector, classics degrees are in massive decline as schools now teach only modern languages instead of including Latin in the mix.

@thebuskerscat but how would a young person chose a subject they’d not been exposed to? You’d have no idea whether you’d be any good at it.
This is so true. I said upthread students can be admitted to Classics as complete beginners in one or both languages. However as well as developing an interest in classical civilisation (which anybody can do but obviously more likely if you are encouraged to read widely) somebody applying for classics would have to be pretty sure that they had the type of aptitude for logical thinking and linguistics required to learn latin and / or Greek. Otherwise it would be a painful three or four years. If state schools reduce exposure to MFLs then that makes it even less likely that a student would know if they are interested in learning languages to read source material in the original.
IMO it is n’t just necessity from poverty of resource that is shaping state education in the UK but too narrow a focus on what is considered important compared to other countries in the world.

but how would a young person chose a subject they’d not been exposed to?

Exactly. We have the same with our son who "wants" to do a computer science degree. His school didn't offer either GCSE nor A level computer science, in fact, they've given no formal computer teaching at all - all DS has done in school was a tiny bit of play programming at primary school. It's a real dilemma as he just hasn't a clue if he'll enjoy it or be any good at it. At the moment, his preference is to do is as part of a natural science degree so he can bin the CS section if it's not working for him and take Maths and/or Physics instead. Students are always going to be reluctant to take a course they've had limited/no exposure of.

My personal view is that if they just based offers on GCSE and A level results only then there would be far less bias. Its the personal statements where the private school pupils seem to shine.

Just going back to this statement, the admissions tutor at Glasgow Uni told me this is exactly what they do - it is policy that they do not read the personal statement as it just shows what opportunities were available to the young person, they go purely on grades. One (of many) reasons my DC liked the Uni. Go where feels right for your DC, open days are a good way to get a feel.

Thank you, QuaterMiss. Think we should suggest it to MNHQ.

(Although law and medicine are the exception to those points - you aren't exposed to them as A level subjects and yet they remain very popular and hard to get into with very high grade requirements from both state and private schools. I suppose that's because most people have seen their NHS doctor and perhaps watched a TV show about lawyers though).

but how would a young person chose a subject they’d not been exposed to?

Lots of students study a subject at Uni they've not taken at school, even if it were offered. Eg Law, Sociology, Linguistics, Criminology, Economics, Business. By reading about the subject and looking at course modules it should be pretty easy to decide whether you'd enjoy it and do well.

Languages offered at our local comp: Spanish.

Languages our dc studied between them:

French
Latin
Spanish
Mandarin
Greek

DD's degree is building on a first year option of Arabic.

It is the difference between being well educated and well qualified. All children should have the opportunity to be well educated. How has Ofsted improved this?

I turned down Durham as an option because the degree they offered was antiquated and so so dull. I went to a high flying London uni instead. Same when 14 years later I was invited to apply for a lectureship. Nope. Degree basically unchanged and lacking innovation.

I turned down Durham as an option because the degree they offered was antiquated and so so dull

Why did you apply for this dull course then ?

DS initially accepted Classics at Durham. Then decided at the last minuten to apply to Oxbridge. Partly because he got 44 IB points, partly because he grew up a lot between 17 and 18 (had an anti estab, anti what his father did phase) and partly and probably most pertinently I think he realised that if he went to Durham he wpuld spend a lot of time and money travelling to Newcastle for decent clubs.

Languages offered at my large local inner-city comp-
French
Spanish
German
Latin
Mandarin
Greek