Leaving university, without ever having had a job?

[VerenaR]

Just that really. What would you think of a person, generally and also from an employment point of view, if they had left university without ever having had a job?

My DD is currently in her second year of university, and I am really trying to persuade her to start looking for a summer job. She has reliably told me she will definitely get one this year, but she has said that for the past two years! She says she doesn't need to work as she wants to enjoy her time off doing the things she likes doing, and she insists she doesn't need the money (she receives a big maintenance loan from uni, that would last her over the summer). I know this is true, as she never asked me for any money last year. She earns money from selling clothes, but I keep on telling her that won't cut it on a CV if she has never held down an actual job.

Please give me your opinions and advice, I want her to see that I am not nagging her, just trying to help her in gaining experience which will help secure a full-time job after university.

Grim baffled by your last post. However, cracking on. DC`s used to work a hour plus week in the holidays. Two doing bar restaurant work, unsocial hours. The middle one being agin shift work, worked for a farmer 8-5 which meant his evenings were his own.

Whilst at school the money was for frippery. When at uni. it was their silly money...

It does give them a work ethic imo.

40 plus hour week disappeared sowwy.... that is what they worked in holidays.

What is baffling @justasking - am happy to explain.

My post was mostly in response to @Bubblesbuddy who seems to think it very unfair that credit should be given for paid work.

Of course volunteering - especially consistently with the same organisation over a long period- is good too but I see many CVs with volunteering AND paid work experience on them. All other things being equal (I.e. academic qualifications, well written and presented CV and application form) why is it wrong to pick the kids who have both?

To be honest, I think OP's daughter's priority is to find out what she want to do as a career in the future.
She certainly proved that she is a person who can work hard and with initiative by her ebay business and other works.
Once she had the idea of her future work, she can plan holiday jobs to gain what needed for her future work.

For example, for a DC who want to become academic , he might want to find some experience in teaching, join research project etc. If DC would like to work in business, then I would think any job in shop, restaurant can help.

Good opportunities come from: NCS the Challenge, local council summer schemes, university summer schools, city-type industry placements. It’s very difficult to apply for a grad job without real experience to draw from.

@maryso "Most jobs can be done by most people"
I'm guessing that you have never worked in a technical or professional field if you think that is true. The list of jobs I could never do, no matter how much training or interview coaching I got is infinite.....

grimupnorthLondon, firstly your extrapolation says a lot about your views and nothing else. Perhaps your guess is completely and utterly wrong because I neglected to say explicitly that most jobs an English graduate like the OP's DD would look at, can be done by most people. She could not start medical training, plastering, plumbing, and similar technical jobs without gaining additional specific skills. Why would you be thinking of these type of jobs for an English graduate? She could certainly go for jobs such as the ones touted around MN, in law, finance, IB, FMCG-related, public sector graduate schemes. The latter category can be accessed by any bright graduate capable of making their way through the battery of cognitive tests, interviews and other games played at assessment centres, hurdles which closely resemble those that 17-year olds go through for medicine, dentistry and vet med courses. 'Tis no great dark art.

The hurdles set out in non-vocational jobs are more about the firm trying not to be found getting it wrong, than the applicant not being good enough. The better employers have no prejudices as to where you got your experience, only that you palpably can do the job, are generally a good egg, and unlikely to burn out. Most jobs (including ones that start trainees on 2-3 times the median UK salary) can be done by far far more people than there are jobs. Sure, you have to be someone who will take ownership of the team outcomes. If that's the skill level we're talking about, then I would say that previous work experience especially of the casual sort generally done by students is a flawed, even poor, predictor. Using that as a sieve just shows up the sort of firm you are, and will happily (for you) get you exactly the sort of worker you wish for. My personal experience (in over three decades of hiring decisions) is that I never allow HR to rule anyone out, and that those with chips on their shoulders tend to rule themselves out. Many (young) women tend to talk themselves down as to what they apply for, without their elders scaring them further from the futures they deserve.

Back to the OP's DD, get the best degree classification you can, and that will keep a lot of doors open. Now and later, work out what you want, and cover all gaps, because then you get to fly where you wish. If that calls for working somewhere, at least you know where and why and the how will come so much more easily. That works even if you find that what you want is one of those jobs that can be done by very few people. It may not come easily, but you'll not be wasting your time on other people's mistakes.

I apologise for not being a mind-reader @maryso and commenting on what you actually said as opposed to what you neglected to say.

However, even on your extended premise, I strongly disagree that most jobs an English graduate would look at could be done by most people, or even most graduates. Every sector has its own specific requirements, that will suit different people. I consistently find that a large proportion of graduates lack the high level writing skills that my law firm needs them to have. Most IB jobs require really high levels of numeracy, as well as massive resilience. I also recruit for two charities (as a trustee), where the role requirements are quite different, and in that capacity we find that not all young graduates can summon the right balance of confidence and empathy to enable them to deal with vulnerable clients.

All I have been trying to say in this thread is that it is a really really competitive graduate recruitment market, and applicants maximise their chances by having as much as possible to offer on their applications - whether it’s good results, volunteering or paid work experience. Don’t give us reasons not to call you to interview. In many sectors the world has changed from the days when a decent CV and being “generally a good egg” could get you in. Now we see hugely driven and impressive students from all kinds of backgrounds who have achieved amazing amounts by the time they graduate and remember also that the UK attracts not only its own graduates but those from all around the world. Myself and other senior people in my firm often say that we would struggle to get our jobs nowadays - the standard is really far higher than it was back in the day. It’s fine to enjoy your student years and I really truly wish more students had an opportunity to use that time to explore their interests, but the reality is that, for graduate jobs in many fields, you need to start building your application early. I just think it’s helpful for students to know how recruiters view applications.

To illustrate,s she has made 10K+ since 2013...I'm just very unsure if employers would accept that as a 'real' job and relevant experience.

There are two things here, firstly the culture of the place where she is applying, which will determine who will be invited to interview.

Secondly what she can think of to say in response to the kind of questions which will come up in an interview.

If she is applying for say civil service jobs, the experience of selling on eBay may not make her stand out. There are other places who would really rate that type of experience.

At interview, she may well be asked to give examples of how she dealt with a difficult customer or when she made a mistake. I can easily see how the eBay experience for could be used to give a good answer.

She has certainly demonstrated that she is a self starter, big ideas and attention to detail etc.

If she is interested in a role in less formal cultures, looking at anything that takes her interest could easily lead to a role that she is good at and enjoys.

I work in a large corporate company with a very relaxed culture. Lots joined from similar roles in other companies, through traditional routes but there are plenty of people who have done very well giving joined as receptionists, baristas it security people. They got to know everyone and what projects were running and took it from there.

She will be fine.

I apologise for not being a mind-reader @maryso and commenting on what you actually said as opposed to what you neglected to say.

grimupnorthLondon how gracious of you! And a useful lesson in how careful one must be not to assume things within their context, when dealing with people in law firms. Even the single existing context of the OP's DD must be repeatedly spelled out in case of confusion.

You are of course right in that there will be firms that assume that an English graduate will not also have the numeracy skills and resilience to beat the opposition in IB tests and assessment centres. Or say a STEM graduate will not have the writing skills to beat the opposition in the honeypot law firms. Or that empathy and compassion is only gained through some arbitrary span of degrees or experience. Best not to bother with these would be my advice, they will not be much use career-wise. If senior people say they would struggle to succeed in their hiring process, what does that say about how healthy a work place that would be? Surely there is no sense putting anyone through anything that they would struggle to succeed in? The flight risk would be phenomenal, and the work culture oppressive.

Graduate-entry law, IB, charities for the vulnerable - these jobs are not specialist jobs, they are suited to anyone who has developed these generalist skills over their lives. After that it is just a matter of the competition, and having a good day.

There are very few non-vocational jobs where you actually need a high level of a specific skill, and these will specify which degrees will be considered. These places turn down (tens of) thousands of graduates from our top universities, rather than take one borderline case. These are the only places that OP's DD may need to check if she could gain additional skills to those demanded by a good English degree.

You're not making any sense @maryso. I'm not assuming anything. I am telling you that in over a decade of recruiting, I have seen hundreds of application forms from graduates (in all subjects) which are so badly written that we know they would not be capable of doing the job (or have taken so little trouble over their application form that they would likely be too careless in their work). I am entirely agnostic as to degree subject and make no assumptions until I have read the full application and associated tests.

Some people could be having their very best day ever and still not be right for some jobs. However, they will of course be right for other jobs. And @FinallyHere makes an excellent point about alternative routes, such as working one's way up through a company and of course there is always the entrepeneurial route. I am just offering a perspective on how recruitment for specifically graduate roles work, since that has been the topic of discussion on this thread.

@grimupnorthLondon just hundreds of forms? So all OP's DD has to do is to be literate and professional, as all those other very impressive ones were. How is that correlated to whether they worked beforehand?

You have always had to be literate and professional in attitude to get invited to test, plus the top degree from the top university. Cognitive tests and AI make assessment much more of a level playing field, they give everyone another go. Wasting a perfectly good summer on any old job is about the worst thing someone can do, to beat the competition.

Yes @maryso. We divide up the applications who meet our grade requirements between the graduate recruiting committee and I review a few hundred each year. It is a holistic review so I am looking at grades, standard of writing, work experience, volunteering and extra-curricular interests. I then put forward a longlist to the committee and those candidates are invited to do online tests and video interviews. Then the shortlist get invited to an assessment centre.

Poor writing will get you cut at the first stage but there are still many more decently written forms than I can longlist. So that is where a lack of work experience can hurt you because most strong candidates will have it and I have to base my decision on something.

I know that the process is very similar in other law firms and financial institutions.

Does it have to be a paid job? Can she not volunteer?

I quite agree maryso. The goal posts have now been changed to add In literate and well presented applications. One suspects it isn’t just about working whilst being a student!

If it’s W/C kids who need to work the most, as anecdote would have it, why don’t they get all the best jobs? Maybe the MC ones put in better applications? Law is notoriously MC.

Where did I say it was all about working @BubblesBuddy? I have been wholly consistent and have just explained that the application process is an holistic assessment of which work experience forms one part.

However, I would say that work experience is a more significant part of the application than it used to be because law firms have learned that a track record of working is a good indicator of candidates with the grit and persistence to do the job well. Law firms are very different places from when I started 25 years ago - everyone needs to work hard now, and the days of "Finders, Minders, and Grinders" (when some people took their chums to lunch and others did the actual work) are long over. The marketplace is also more international and professional so personal connections are less essential.

And yes, I agree that law is (regretfully ) still notoriously MC, which is why I said in an earlier post that the playing field is still slanted in favour of monied applicants - they are far more likely to have the high grades required because of their educational privilege. However, the more savvy of those MC applicants are also making sure they have work experience on their CVs.

and of course “work experience” as opposed to “work” might be through connections and the fact that mum and dad provide money whilst the unpaid work experience is taking place. If selection procedures are not trying to level the playing field in any meaningful way, it’s not surprising you choose MC applicants who have the better degrees. You don’t appear to make any allowances for other attributes!

Eldest DS wrote 48 letters to companies before he finished his first year offering himself for internship (unpaid) during the holidays. He only received one reply. It is not easy finding something in your field of study.

We can often tell where "work experience" was achieved through connections e.g. if someone has 'interned' for a short period at big organisation outside of the official grad schemes that is usually pretty suspicious. If however they have waitressed at a chain restaurant or worked in retail during all their holidays for several years, that is probably not. A holistic reader of application forms will bear all this in mind from the information on the form as a whole.

By the way, we also run open days and "early" vacation schemes for first and second year undergrad students from minority ethnic/low income backgrounds and other groups less represented in law firms, so that they have contact with the firm/work experience which they can use in their applications. Some of our lawyers also act as mentors for students from 'non-traditional' backgrounds to help them better understand the job and the application process. Most big organisations these days are trying to level the playing field in similar ways.

Regardless of the student's background, a brilliantly written application with tip-top grades and only minimal work experience will probably get longlisted. If the writing and grades are on the borderline, then work experience may well be the thing that helps you make the cut. Allowances are made for all attributes but no work experience at all (not talking about OP's DD here since she can spin her ebay business) is a red flag the candidate needs to overcome in other areas of their application.

A very odd question in my view and one not suited to a student applicant.

It can be a very revealing question. Good applicants either discuss dealing with constructive criticism or answer a slightly different question about their ability to persuade or just look confused and say they've never disagreed with their supervisor (and it's not necessarily a work supervisor, many will talk about a supervisor at Uni). Bad candidates reveal themselves as being arrogant and unable to take advice.

For example, my DH doesn’t ask “work” questions because he wants people who are competent in engineering, and young grad engineers would not have the experience to change anyone’s viewpoint! And they are very unlikely to disagree with an engineering supervisor when they are not qualified in any shape or form.

I'm interviewing scientists, they have a technical interview and a competency interview. Giving examples from the technical interview would not be meaningful for this discussion but competency questions are set by HR and are more generic. And scientists do disagree with their supervisors and are expected to argue a point logically (i.e. persuade me). As I would expect from the graduate engineers I work with as well.

One of my DDs has worked for 6 years throughout school and University babysitting for a lovely family. They live two houses down and pay £10 an hour (£15 after midnight) so DD hasn't bothered to get a 'real' part time or holiday job. They use her a lot and she has saved up thousands of pounds working for them. Apart from some event work she hasn't done much else. I know the money is amazing but I've suggested it won't look good on her CV.

those who have had paid work while at university are demonstrating certain skills that are valuable to most employers. If you havent done that you need to convince an employer by other means that you have those skills.

Women do tend to undersell what they do. Running an ebay business is definitely useful on a cv. Babysitting for 6 years has probably thrown up any number of difficult situations. The skills learnt in dealing with toddler tantrums can be applied to any difficult person. It would be better to also have holiday work in the field of interest - but good presentation of what you have done helps.

You'd think they would be interested enough in something to want to get some experience in it while still in education. Not working smacks of entitlement to me and entitlement as a teenager = entitlement as an employee. Speaking from experience as an employer here.

The most important thing is to have a career goal , then build around it. For Stem subjects, have best score in University is far more important than shop, restaurant sort of working experience. If you have a first class or 2:1 from a reputable university, this will certainly give you a good start. Actually, term time working is not encouraged by University for subjects like engineering etc. As the work load is really heavy.

What I mean is it is really important what sort of jobs you would like to do, then you need to gain the relevant skills around it.

• Actually, term time working is not encouraged by University for subjects like engineering etc. As the work load is really heavy.

Cambridge doesn't allow its undergrads to work at all in term.

But proper placements in the summer most certainly are encouraged. It's actually a course requirement on some engineering degrees that they've done a certain amount. DD's requires at least 6 weeks of relevant work is completed in order to be admitted to the 3rd year. Many do more, to get experience of different sectors.