Leaving university, without ever having had a job?

[VerenaR]

Just that really. What would you think of a person, generally and also from an employment point of view, if they had left university without ever having had a job?

My DD is currently in her second year of university, and I am really trying to persuade her to start looking for a summer job. She has reliably told me she will definitely get one this year, but she has said that for the past two years! She says she doesn't need to work as she wants to enjoy her time off doing the things she likes doing, and she insists she doesn't need the money (she receives a big maintenance loan from uni, that would last her over the summer). I know this is true, as she never asked me for any money last year. She earns money from selling clothes, but I keep on telling her that won't cut it on a CV if she has never held down an actual job.

Please give me your opinions and advice, I want her to see that I am not nagging her, just trying to help her in gaining experience which will help secure a full-time job after university.

[MariaNovella]

Not all university courses are compatible with a term time job but holiday jobs are a must.

[grimupnorthLondon]

@Lazypuppy Lots of degrees require considerable amounts of self-study (reading, research, essay writing) so the 10 hours could easily require an additional 30 or 40. Oxbridge doesn't allow students to work during term time (although I know a few who do anyway). However, no excuse at all for not working during the holidays.

[Lazypuppy]

@grimupnorthLondon still plenty of time to have a job, whats wrong with weekends?

I worked 2 pt jobs when i was at uni, as i like to be busy and needed the money. Some days i'd work 10-4:30 in retail then 6-midnight at a pub.

Problem is, if students get used to having so much free time, then they won't want to qork ft

[pikapikachu]

I'm assuming that her degree isn't something like nursing with lots of placements.

My Ds is in y13 and has been working in a shop since y12. He says that there's very high turnover of staff with some opting to leave as they find it too hard and others being let go after probation. There are staff that work in their university town during term time and near home during the holidays. He plans to do the same.

Ds is going to an average uni in terms of prestige so we think that work experience will help him get short listed for jobs after university. All of his friends have work experience of some kind and his younger sister plans to find a job too after GCSEs.

[grimupnorthLondon]

@Lazypuppy I think it is a question of balance. I had to study about 10 hours a day (including weekends) to get my degree - I'm not naturally brilliant and needed a good grade for the competitive career I'd chosen. I also took part in various extra-curricular activities, which were an important part of the university experience for me so, except for the odd shift in the college bar, I didn't work during term time. However, terms were short so that still left a lot of holidays where I always worked full time throughout (god bless Office Angels and PerTemps!) and the money from that got me through the terms.

[MrsFogi]

I will not interview anyone who applies for an internship/graduate position if they haven't had Saturday/holiday jobs (proper ones that require regular attendance/fitting in with others/doing a decent hard day's non-glamourous work not pseudo work swanning around with a family friend/on a gap year).

[BubblesBuddy]

Do you tell the applicants that’s a requirement MrsFogi. If not, that’s blatantly unfair. How can grads prepare if they don’t know what you want? I do think the majority of young people at university are more than capable of working hard. They don’t have to flog themselves to death at university to prove a point to you. It’s better to get a good degree and “work” in the holidays.

For those of you who think all students should work in term time, as you did in your day, have you realised that there are huge numbers of students in relatively small university towns now? It’s virtually impossible for them all to get jobs and, in fact, many of the highest ranking universities don’t particularly want students working. The evidence points to these students still getting the best jobs. Therefore some employers are not so bothered about term time work but prefer a more nuanced skills and competencies based approach. At interviews my DD was asked about her hobbies and interests. It’s a good job she had time to pursue them and is a well educated and well rounded person. Not just a work machine! Young people who do well, often have many interests and have a broad education that isn’t purely work based.

[grimupnorthLondon]

@BubblesBuddy there is of course an incredibly strong correlation between students from families who will find them so they don't have to work and the kind of useful contacts and "social and cultural capital" that enables those students to appear credible in interviews - they are used to talking to professional people. However, I (and it sounds like other recruiters) are realising that long term results are better from young people who have actually walked the walk and demonstrated their resilience in the workplace before graduating. I am very suspicious of blaggers trying to leverage their "funemployment" in interviews. But don't worry - there are many many more old-school employers who are still more impressed by surface polish than an actual track record of working.

[Lazypuppy]

@BubblesBuddy

For those of you who think all students should work in term time, as you did in your day,

I'm was at uni 5 years ago, so really not that long ago,in a small uni town, not a city, plenty of jobs going! All my housemates went home each holiday and did nothing, i always stayed at uni as i had a part time job, 16 hrs a week during term time, and full time during holidays.

[CountFosco]

prefer a more nuanced skills and competencies based approach

Which is why work experience is so valuable. Typical competency questions we ask new or recent graduates:
'give me an example of when you disagreed with a supervisor about your performance'
'give me an example of when you had to persuade someone to accept your viewpoint'
'give me an example of when you had to solve a difficult problem'
'give me an example of when you had to deal with quickly changing priorities'

It is possible to answer these questions from university experience ( I'm recruiting scientists so they have all done lab based projects and worked in teams) but the more work experience they have the better they are at answering these questions and the more examples they have. There's only so many times they can say 'in my final year project...'

[BubblesBuddy]

My DD could answer all of those when she volunteered at the CAB. No problem apart from possibly the first. She wouldn’t disagree but would have felt able to put forward ideas in a constructive way. Few young people at Tesco or working in a bar are hauled up in front of the supervisor for poor performance. A very odd question in my view and one not suited to a student applicant. I’m MCIPD by the way.

Have any of you ever volunteered at an inner London CAB with fights breaking out and trying to advise clients with serious problems such as being evicted and losing their children? No, I thought not. You don’t need paid work to show competencies and transferable skills.

Those questions are somewhat loaded towards the expectation that young people have worked. They are not really assessing how young people might perform and how they might use skills not gained at work.

Universities that interview assess potential, and it’s a far more nuanced skill than just selecting a narrow field of applicants that have one special icicles attribute (Work) and ignoring the skills that might be possessed by the others because you load your selection in favour of the former. Most employers are not stupid enough to assume transferable skills are not possessed by a variety of applicants and they use a variety of selection methods. For example, my DH doesn’t ask “work” questions because he wants people who are competent in engineering, and young grad engineers would not have the experience to change anyone’s viewpoint! And they are very unlikely to disagree with an engineering supervisor when they are not qualified in any shape or form.

That isn’t to say that work and volunteering isn’t good but you are setting questions based on pre determined preferences that possibly your applicants don’t know about. It’s not a level playing field and it isn’t fair. You could miss out on some very good candidates.

[grimupnorthLondon]

I think you are getting very defensive on behalf of kids who haven't needed to work and are perhaps a bit unrealistic @Bubblesbuddy. I am a trustee of a Law Centre with a similar part-volunteer reception set up to a CAB (I volunteered there myself as a student by the way) and the manager spends a reasonable amount of time dealing with minor disagreements between supervisors, staff and volunteers. And I know from my own experience working retail that it's common to have to deal with stroppy supervisors who won't let students do things like swap shifts for family events etc. In the real world kids often have opportunities to learn to stand up for themselves in a work environment. Exactly the kind of skills they will need in the professional workplace.

And of course technical qualifications are important - they are one of the base lines for selection for interview. But there are tons of qualified candidates out there - we get over 5000 applicants a year for 20 graduate posts and i interview around 200 as part of an assessment centre where they have lots of opportunities to demonstrate skills and competencies through written and group exercises and presentations. The interview is to discuss their CV and get a sense of their personality and that's where I find that work experience can really make them impressive.

Calling it unfair to favour kids who have taken the initiative and got jobs is a bit ridiculous. If anything I think employers have missed out on some very good people in the past by discounting that kind of experience in favour of flashier CVs and mindset.

[justasking111]

All three DCs had work from sixteen. The youngest was very shy so we encouraged him to work for a large restaurant pub. A lot of youngsters work there. The difference in him is noticeable he is now much more confident. So for the social skills you need in the workplace I would say a job is beneficial.

[stressedoutpa]

That isn’t to say that work and volunteering isn’t good but you are setting questions based on pre determined preferences that possibly your applicants don’t know about. It’s not a level playing field and it isn’t fair. You could miss out on some very good candidates.

At the end of the day, the power lies with the employer. They will ask questions that fit their criteria and narrow down the field. If every candidate was considered on their 'potential' then they would probably be only to whittle the pool down to 80%.

If I apply for a job and don't get called to interview I assume that I don't fulfil the criteria. If I desperately wanted the job I would work on the areas that allow me to tick more of the boxes. I wouldn't bleat that they hadn't seen my potential because that would be a bit childish....

[Bringonspring]

Hi, I work for one of the ‘big 4 professional
Services firms. I make a point if not hiring graduates who’ve had no paid jobs.

[StickyCarpet]

She will be in a much better position for employability if she gets work experience. Definitely put her ebay business down on her CV, she will have acquired loads of transferable skills.
I'd highly recommend that she goes into her uni and books an appointment with a career coach, they may also be able to assist her in finding work or show her jobs pages related to the uni. Students who engage with careers services tend to have good outcomes so it's very worthwhile getting some guidance.

This scheme is popular with students atm and pays really well! It would fit in well with her previous mentoring.
ncs.the-challenge.org/jobs/

[BackforGood]

GrimupNorth has made some very good points.
I have to disagree with Bubbles.
Like so many have said, the experience of dealing with colleagues, the public, supervisors or managers, committing to the time management of turning up for shifts when you'd rather not, etc is really valuable.

[maryso]

Lots of well-intended advice and points of view as usual. The thing that occurs to me is that employers tend to get the workers they deserve. If qualifications or other forms of polish, including having done 5 hours at mill before lectures, are your latest dazzle, you'll get what you're looking for.

Most jobs can be done by most people, and firms can jog on life support and acute recovery operations for a while. Also if you only take say 2-3% of well-qualified applicants and wash out 10% annually like some honeypot firms, HR will have to devise spurious ways of demonstrating why you turned down the rest.

On the other side, people grow at different rates and in different directions. Some benefit from holiday work, voluntary work etc etc, but only I suspect if they value what they spent their time on. So my point would be just make sure it's worth her time. She won't have a sense of that unless she thinks realistically about what floats her boat. A fair few people in rarefied fields still do repetitive, apparently dull, irrelevant, altruistic work not because they need it for their CV, but because they make links and value those commitments. As you get older, it gets more difficult logistically and the links invariably become less personal, so don't waste her time doing something just because other people do. She isn't other people, and will grow much faster and better working out what she needs.

[TheFeet]

"she sources the clothes by trawling through charity shops and looking for bargains and selling them on"

This is a real business if she buys to sell - I assume she is registered with HMRC as a sole trader and fills in tax returns. I am not in recruitment but I would be far more impressed by a student who had achieved this than by one with your average part-time retail job.

I know several people who have done this as their main/only income and I would say it certainly qualifies as great work experience. (Your daughter is mistaken about the need to charge free postage as a business seller though - this is definitely not a requirement and those who choose to do it just factor the postage into their prices).

[grimupnorthLondon]

@maryso "Most jobs can be done by most people"

I'm guessing that you have never worked in a technical or professional field if you think that is true. The list of jobs I could never do, no matter how much training or interview coaching I got is infinite.....

[Benes]

Most jobs can be done by most people

Erm no....that isn't true.

[bakedbeanzontoast]

I'd be put right off personally. I'd worry the person had just been arse wiped through university and therefore didn't know what it is to actually need to work. I know that's a bit judgemental but that's what my initial thought would be.

[elastamum]

Its not always the case.

We run a big assessment centre for our graduates. (medical writing) We are far more interested in subject grades and whether they can pass our writing test and assessment than what they did in the holidays. I cant even think of a time when we have discussed holiday work unless it was in a relevant field.

[BubblesBuddy]

I think that was my point elastamum. Relevant experience is good. Just working at anything is not always so great.

BackforGood: Volunteering definitely can mean comitting time, working with managers, dealing with the public, working shifts and lots of other things. In fact it can mean a great deal more if the student is given projects within the voluntary sector which really make a difference to the cv. Rarely do low level paid jobs get this extra element, especially if it is for a big company. For all the reasons you state about a job, volunteering can give a great deal more and has the added advantage of giving something back. This appears to be sadly dismissed as not worthwhile by some recruiters here reflecting the "me me me" society we have become.

I do not think I am over supporting not working but I do think volunteering and indeed running a buy and sell pocket money "business" on eBay is being dismissed as worthless by some. It clearly is not worthless. As for paying tax - really it is of no odds and loads of people do this with unwanted goods! Including my family. Loads of students do this by the way!

There has been an over-emphasis on paid work being the only selection tool that is used by some recruiters here to differentiate between suitable grads and not suitable grads. If a grad scheme makes it perfectly clear that only grads will be considered with work experience, and it is stated how much and in what capacity, then that's at least transparent, but it assumes the student can actually access such work. Some may not be able to but have done other things that are equally as good in terms of comitment, gaining skills and competancies, but just not for a big company. It is difficult to get suitable term time work in towns like Bangor, Aberystwyth, Falmouth, Carlisle, or Loughborough for example. Sometimes holiday work in very rural places can be difficult to find and definitely to get to if family transport is not available. We do not have a bus service for example.

Also how do employers differentiate between those who did work for parents? We know loads of DC who have done this in the holidays and it has been a very relaxed situation. It is still on the cv as work but it is really not work in the generally accepted sense. Therefore there should be room for looking at cvs in more detail because some students are far better than these cossetted ones who have had everything given without effort, including paid work, on a plate.

[grimupnorthLondon]

How is it "me me me" to consider it a positive factor that students have found and stuck at a job? My job is to minimise the risk to my firm that we spend a lot of money and time training people who can't handle a full time job. I have found (over a decade of experience) that one of the best ways to do that is to hire people who have already had a full time job (and who meet all the other objective criteria of course).

And it's pretty easy reading between the lines to work out who has gained their "work experience" through family contacts etc.

But you shouldn't worry - the system is still firmly weighted in favour of the upper middle class kids with family money and access to expensive education, tutoring and contacts. The proles aren't coming en masse for your kids' jobs yet.