Which are the 23 universities singled out for unconditionals?And...

[Miljah]

...are most in financial trouble?

I agree that is not the reason for many. Plenty just want 3 years of a lot of drinking! Others want to study that particular subject. It would be boring if everyone were the same.

It actually breaks my heart when I read all the posts about earning potential.

I actually think all the lovers of study and their subject should be the only people to go to University and the ambitious money orientated people should go straight to work at 16. Joking. But only a little.

Go on many other MN threads and you will see thread after thread of women complaining because they cannot afford the rent, children's shoes, enough food, the bills and hten decide if it matters if your child earns enough or not. It is quite a nice positon to be so rich that you don't care if your child earns enough money to eat because you could always be able to feed them but plenty of people don't have that luxury and it makes sense that children pick careers that are relatively high paid (although my graduate son drives a van for a living and is perfectly happy so of course I see things from all sides).

Mine like horses. They need money! And I don't want them to have to necessarily rely on a man!

"I actually think all the lovers of study and their subject should be the only people to go to University and the ambitious money orientated people should go straight to work at 16. Joking. But only a little."

That's a very idealistic view, and bears no resemblance to the real world. I agree with Xenia. Most things we do in life is a means to an end. I don't think I know anyone who loves learning for learning's sake. Most students I know are enjoying university for the party lifestyle rather than the learning. Some of them prefer to party rather than learn and only turn up for the occasional lecture.

Dangling - DS loves jazz performance. Loves it with a quite unreasonable and all-consuming passion. So that is what he is studying instead of conventional university.

Do i worry about him ever earning any money? Of course. Do I think we should persuade him to do something more commercial? No.

Nobody in my immediate family or their spouses do anything related to what they studied at university - in my generation, we are almost all Oxbridge scientists but teach [only in 1 case anything related to our degree], are employed by the church, compose music, write plays....The only one in any way 'successful' in money terms was a historian at university and then trained as an accountant.

DS may well end up in a career other than performance musician. It's one reason we want him to get good A-levels as a backup. However to insist that 'future earnings' should take precedence over 'burning long term passion for a subject' would IMO be wrong.

I love learning for learning's sake. I always have! I can totally understand someone doing a Business degree having more of a career plan focused on earning potential. But I think that is not so often a top priority in Arts degrees, for example. Most if the students I have taught who have gone on to do history or English degrees love learning.

I don't think I know anyone who loves learning for learning's sake.

That's really sad. Everyone I meet who is doing DS's future course loves it, loves it passionately despite its difficulty and uncertainty. Equally those I meet who are doing dance (DD's passion, though she will almost certainly do an academic degree), or various forms of art, or various economics / politics related studies, or come to think of it engineering and computer games design, love their subjects and love studying them. Is the lack of love for studying because students are being pushed towards 'future earnings related' studies rather than something they really love? Or because so many students go to university as 'the next step' without any particular burning desire to study anything at all?

Xenia learning enough is hardly the same as earning a lot. When posters say maximising earning potential I don't think they mean becoming a teacher or a museum curator or a social worker. All of which mean people can independently live.

Sorry, that should have said earning enough.

can'tkeep I think if you can manage to do a degree in what is essentially your passion or hobby you are on to a winner. Sadly I don't know of any degrees on Harry Potter or YouTube (DD's passions), so she is going to do a degree in what she is good at and what she is interested in (rather than passionate about).

"Or because so many students go to university as 'the next step' without any particular burning desire to study anything at all?"

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. In my (not vast) experience all but 2 of DD's friends went to university because it was expected of them, and it was just the next step, just like going to secondary school after primary school. University was heavily pushed at DD's school.

Sadly, I know several graduates with degrees who are out of work or working in jobs with minimum wages because their degrees are in highly competitive subjects, subjects that don't offer transferrable skills or subjects that aren't required in the workplace, so please forgive me if I am more pragmatic about why many students do degrees in subjects that are more likely to get them a job.

We live in an area with a high unemployment rate, which probably has influenced the decision making process for our young people.

dd will probably get something in the region of ABB or ABC and of course this puts her out of the running as far as top unis go

I've known people get into Bristol with grades along those lines or a little lower as they have gone through clearing on some of the less popular courses.

What a top university for a specific student is down to what the student is looking for in my opinion - for some it might be the UWE, for others it might be Bristol. Horses for courses and all that.

dd will probably get something in the region of ABB or ABC and of course this puts her out of the running as far as top unis go.

What a few others have beaten me to on that one. Geography at Durham this year, for a start. One YP posting on TSR completely bemused to have received an initial offer below the norm, but then an even lower one as an incentive to firm, with by their own admission, no contextual data for the university to be using.

And I, too, am saddened by the thought of no love of learning for its own sake :-(.

I'm talking about applying. No top unis ask for ABC. So why would you apply? If you are predicted AAA and get an offer THEN get ABC yes of course you may still get in but it's a risk. Clearing is different again.

I think the young people I know who are in extremely well paid jobs do have a love of learning but they also like a bit of fun and are socially fun to be with. They have often done a first degree in something they really want to study and then study something else to qualify for their career. It’s a two stage learning process. University isn’t the end of study and many will go on to study for specific qualifications for careers which can take years. If you don’t like learning, you won’t get far.

Not only that, I find the young people with the best jobs are actually interesting people with great general knowledge. They soak up everything around them. Therefore the first degree really isn’t everything and if they partied in y1 so be it. They had enough brains to get the maximum out of their degree and have a career plan too.

If DC really wants music, then of course they should do it. One of DDs barrister friends did Music at Oxford. Arts subjects are unlikely to be well paid, but any reasonable academic degree is a springboard for a whole host of careers. The student has choices to make whilst at university. Some do next to nothing about careers and others are organised. Usually organised people do better!

I love the idea suggested earlier that teachers should give high predictions to get UIF for the student and then, as was always likely, the students gets CCC but it doesn’t matter!!! They are in! This is yet another reason why universities should stop unconditionals.

How do young people fund second degrees these days?

I loved my law degree and still love learning law every week of the year and it is well paid so for me it's been win win. I think my doctor sibling likes their work too and earns well etc. Nice if you can combine the two. I also do music every day. I am glad I kept it as a hobby although I was and am quite good and did as much music at university in terms of performance as law actually but am glad I kept it as a hobby.

However I don't disagree with if people have a child who is determined to read a particular subject then go for it - the bigger problem for most teenagers is not having an idea about what career they want.

"the bigger problem for most teenagers is not having an idea about what career they want."

So true. One of the reasons that DD took a gap year. She now knows exactly what she wants to do.

the bigger problem for most teenagers is not having an idea about what career they want
I do think there is a lack of information to kids about the huge range of opportunity out there. I am sick to the back teeth of meeting them at uni Open Days where they say "I'm doing A levels in Maths, English and Geography and I don't know which one of these subjects to do at uni". Eh? What about the gazillion other degree courses you can do with that combination of subjects? Given we have the Internet nowadays I am amazed that so few have any clue about the huge range of courses available.

I did say I was joking (partly).

But I'm feeling even sadder now that someone's posted that they no-one who loves learning for learning's sake. I LOVE learning. Anything really but especially "my" areas of interest. It's why I'm alive!

Both my dd did the same degree subject but at vastly different uni. One went to top 5 the other rank somewher around 50-60. Higher if look on guardian league table. What I can say is the courses are very different in depth and rigour. Both got 2:1. Dd who went to lower ranking uni said she wouldn't have been able to handle her sister course at the top uni. Dd at the top uni said she would would have found the course at lesser entry requirement uni too unscientific and not challenging enough. Overall I really do think universities in the end supply degrees adapting them to academic abilities. 2:1 are not all made the same even though both my dd got this grade. If you were to talk to them about their course and content you would see the difference.

I'm talking about applying. No top unis ask for ABC. So why would you apply?

Because you'll still get offers. Ds had ABC predicted. Has all 5 offers, including Bristol and 2 other RGs. Four of the five offers are for higher than his predicted.

It's sensible to have at least one challenging option.

If you are predicted AAA and get an offer THEN get ABC yes of course you may still get in but it's a risk.^

It's not a risk if you have an unconditional
Offer.

Four of the five offers are for higher than his predicted
And of course the way the numbers are at the moment, chances are he'll be accepted even if he misses his offer by a grade or two (or more at some uni's for some courses ...)

Not everyone wants to live with 'chances are', though. Hence the appeal of the UiF. Chances are DS won't actually need the BBC he was asked for by Hull. But, given we don't know that, he applied common sense and accepted one of his two UiFs.