Which are the 23 universities singled out for unconditionals?And...

[Miljah]

...are most in financial trouble?

This could all be stoped if we had a system of students applying for Unis after they have their results. The current system isn't working. It's unfair and based on predicted grades which are far more often wrong than right.

Stopped*

I totally agree students should apply after their grades. The whole system atm is totally silly and more than slightly smoke and mirrors.

The government, rightly, is concerned about pressure selling, students dropping predicted grades and the position of our universities in the world market place

If the government is so worried, perhaps they shouldn't have required the universities to enter the market in the first place?

The current admissions system works just fine for lots of students, and already allows for those that prefer to apply with grades in hand to do so.

I think part of the trouble is, however much we hope it isn't; is that we still have a two league university system.
We still have universities and polytechnics that have been renamed as "universities" whilst some losing their speciality.

Surely there is only a set number of institutions needed providing courses in Y, and then others in Z.

The current admissions system works just fine for lots of students, and already allows for those that prefer to apply with grades in hand to do so

It does work well for lots of students, particularly the more switched on ones with supportive schools and parents. However, for many, many students it causes unnecessary stress and uncertainty and is fundamentally unfair. Currently there is far too much reliance on predicted grades which is crazy as they as more usually wrong than right. Students shouldn’t have to be trying to gameplay the system.

An alternative would be for schools to do more to encourage pupils to take gap years. A gap year allows the pupil to grow up a bit and gain experience. It is a chance to save a bit and to get exposure to the world of work, useful when it comes to applying for internships and jobs. |t also means a chance to make a more informed application based on actual grades and feedback from peers.

In short it is completely possible for people to apply post A levels, so why force it on everyone. And unpicking it a bit, it is easier for schools to simply inflate predicted grades and funnel pupils towards University.

So far, haven't really worked out why unconditional offers are 'wrong', for the reasons piggy gives really. Yes I think there's research showing that more students accepting unconditional offers miss their predicted grades, but we don't yet know whether that's simply because students who are likely to miss predicted grades are more likely to accept unconditional offers. That is at least a plausible hypothesis which merits testing!

I can see that the 'conditionality' of unconditional offers may be criticised because it puts pressure on students to accept that offer rather than another, but I don't think an unconditional offer itself is necessarily a problem. As another pp said, many art/design course degrees make an offer on the basis of the portfolio - which is hours of work, and presumably a better guide to how well you'll do on the course than your grade in eg A level 'unrelated subject'? (Having said that I think the offers tend not to be unconditional, just quite low grade requirements.)

What has also struck me on this year's threads is the practice of opening up applications for, and allocating, accommodation on a first come first served basis before the deadline for all universities to make offers. Which may have the effect of pressuring students to accept a particular place before they even know whether they would get offers elsewhere. I can't see how this is necessary for the purpose of organising accommodation - something to be addressed, perhaps?

I agree with all of that : the accommodation availability has been the single biggest stress!

I don't think teachers inflate predicted grades to 'funnel people into university', nor do we discourage gap years. Put simply, grades are impossible to 'accurately' predict, especially with the loss of AS and new untested A Levels. There is enormous pressure from students and parents to predict 'positively' and obviously we bow to this pressure, more often than not. This is not new and all unis know this. Schools have to report onward destinations - but this would include deferred places, gap years, apprenticeships and employment. It is the more 'elite' schools that are judegd (or judge themselves) on actual uni entrance/ entrance to a particular set of universities.

Royal Holloway have been giving unconditional offers for decades - they were my insurance 44 years ago. They said they always interviewed and if they wanted you they gave an unconditional offer (well, EE, as you did have to pass at least 2 A levels), and if not no offer. Has it now changed and you only get the unconditional if you put them first?

There must be a minimum standard, maybe the equivalent of 3 D's 🙄; surely you shouldn't be able to take a degree with less than that!

Back in the days of the Ark when I took O Levels a friend of my brother's was given an offer of EE, by Oxford for maths.

Virtually an unconditional, but you needed 2 A Levels to get a grant.

It was very rare but it did happen. Also universities might make offers to different students for the same course.

If we did switch to a system where students applied after results then all offers would be unconditional.

There are already lots of students applying with known results eg those going via the BTEC route, or access course or students who have taken a gap year.

It's not the unconditional offer per se that are the problem it is the number of them and the pressure on students to make that offer their 'firm'.

IMHO unconditional offers should only be made after an interview, entrance exam or portfolio and should be decided by the academic department not the admissions office.

Piggy, I don't disagree with what you are saying, except for "nor do we discourage gap years". On another thread where gaps years were being discussed, someone came on to say very authoritatively that their experienced headmaster strongly discouraged gap years.
Observationally local state schools seem keen to get pupils settled at University (the old, one stretch, three achievable and one fall back, often quoted here), whereas DC's private school's standard advice was to aim high and treat University application as a two year process.

I think this is a significant part of why Independent schools seem to get more pupils onto very competitive courses, even if the stress involved is huge. Both DC only got two offers, and at the start of March it looked likely that either might have to take an enforced gap year. In the end both got good offers just before the deadline, and once there it makes not one bit of difference whether their application was top of the heap or last one accepted. With the same for their friends who ended up reapplying with good grades to competitive Universities.

If the offer is comfortable, I am sure it is human nature to take your foot off the pedal a bit. There is a lot going on in Yr13. DDs relatively low offer meant she could go on a school easter ski trip, stay in a school sports team when many others dropped out to focus on studies, continue playing for a local club, and keep up her weekly volunteering and an additional "fun" A level. She met her offer, but did not achieve the predicted grades she was more than capable of. Who cares. Breadth is important as well as depth, and it now looks as if her "fun" A level will boost her chances when applying for a sought after intercalation.

I am talking about competitive academic courses, but I think it is as important, if not more, to aim high when looking at lower tariff courses. If you are going to spend three years and a lot of money, do your best to find the most suitable course possible, even if it means working like blazes to get good A level results and then reapplying.

Dd has an unconditional for one of the universities mentioned. But this was after her portfolio was seen. On her offer holders day she was the only one there out of 30 with an unconditional.

On her offer holders day she was the only one there out of 30 with an unconditional

I'm always amazed how people know this.

Well that's what she said anyway. She said they spent two hours in a seminar and had time before it started and they were all asking each other. She might be making it up, dunno.

I think it'd not be too much of an issue to apply after results in this day & age of online and computerised results/applications. Or at least to have ALL offers subject to min grades and only confirmed after results.

Mine applied on last day of clearing after (finally) getting hold of her results (she was working and couldn't go to school to get them). Hadn't thought she'd have sufficient grades based on school's predictions. Quick & easy to apply and secure a place (she had better than required results).

needmoresleep I do remember reading that myself. I think iirc that was a grammar school? Our head does not involve himself one little bit! Not does DS's.The main discouragement to state school kids is probably lack of networks, finances and confidence to take a gap year. Also, an inclination to view them as 'posh. But I do know quite a few who have delayed applications for a year or more.

"I think it'd not be too much of an issue to apply after results in this day & age of online and computerised results/applications"

I suppose courses that interview (medicine, vet) or look at a portfolio/audition (art/music/drama) would rush to complete that process in time for mid September starts if it didn't begin until after A level results were out. Oxbridge process would be difficult to cram in - aptitude test, read one or even two bits of written work, a couple of interviews (separate debate to be had re why, when eg LSE/Imperial don't interview for all courses, but that is probably/definitely a debate for another thread!!!). Some other universities also seem to have taken a long time this year to finish making offers for certain courses. Also the issue that many of those involved in admissions may use the August/September period as research time at the moment.

But I suspect where there's a will there's a way - a few universities might have to modify their admission procedures, but it could be done if it was a priority to do so. It appears that it isn't, though!

Piggy, yet gap years need not be. DD's was pretty formulaic. Work, then ski season followed by Camp America. The kids on the ski season were very mixed: from all over the country and with all sorts of education levels. A kitchen porter who was using it as his placement from catering college, nannies, play leaders, even maintenance and supplies people, as well as chalet staff. I recently recommended it to a friend whose lovely son has drifted from school into stacking shelves, as a way of expanding horizons and building skills and confidence. Camp America was lots of outdoorsy Scots and Aussies.

DC in an academic independent school could access quite a lot of support and experience. However when choosing A levels they were given half a day timetable free, and told to research courses, Universities and requirements. They were given some pointers, but the message very much was that this was their future and they had to own it.

Do remember that many students apply to universities with grades, and those doing btec as an entry route have most their marks - dd had unconditional but she had a levels in advance, the raw number doesn't distinguish this

itsallsoobviousnow the Irish manage it. Though a much smaller country, albeit with a high proportion of European and overseas students. Results come out in early summer and students are selected depending on their overall points.

They select medical students in the same way using points based on exam results, and aptitude tests. It would be interesting to see whether their medical school population is very different as a result. Academic requirements are high, higher than for most UK medical students, which given an ultimate aim of having 60% go onto to become GPs, preferably spread evenly across the country, may not be an advantage. My assumption is that part of the reason for contextualisation and linked school schemes is to encourage students from within the health authority to apply, who might then return to work in local practices, and that for many NHS jobs, as long as you are clever enough, communication and others skills become as, if not more, important.

The type of DC who are not making informed choices have never skied or would have the fair for Camp America! They are not that sort of DC from that sort of family, by and large. They are more likely to be first in family to university and not aiming high. That’s why they confirm the unconditional because they think it’s an honour. Instead it’s a marketing tool. That’s why it’s unfair. It’s also unfair that there isn’t a level playing field for accommodation either. Gap Yahs are taken by few working class kids. Some universities and courses actively dislike them and some DC see them as yet another year which delays their real career - and they need to get started on earning real money. Gap years frequently don’t add much to the CV and many are paid for by bank of mum and dad, so therefore teach little.,

Art courses might offer lower grades but they are not unconditional with strings attached. You can firm any offer you get when you wish to.

It’s also clear that there are differing grades of university but all charge the maximum for courses. If the university sector is a market and a business, usually an inferior product is cheaper. In business, if you are not very good, you close down. That’s life. It doesn’t really matter who runs the universities. If there are too many, some should alter what they teach. The government has bailed out universities and will be paying for unpaid student loans as so few students will pay them off.

I think everyone does know it's a marketing tool : but it's a difficult one to ignore. The first come first served accommodation marketing tool, in combination with the UiFs is the worst . I really haven't heard anyone for a few years now talking of unconditionals in awed tones.

Regardles of whether either yoububbles or you need are right about the type of person (home background wise) who does a ski season, a DC would also need a certain level of independence and confidence to undertake something like that. I did know lots of Camp America types when I was young (and a few PE teaachers have done it!) , nearly all after graduating or betweeen uni years, rather than before, though.

At the end of the day, DS definitely took his UiF because it seemed the safest option. But this is combined with feeligns about location, town and accommodation : so he was still choosing one (Lincoln) over another (Portsmouth).