Oxbridge Applications 2019 (Part Three)

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Today is a big day for many... time for a new thread too

It is, bengalcat, isn't it? The problem at this stage is that candidates have been so focused on Oxbridge that they've seen it as an end rather than a means. The trick is to focus on what they really want to achieve, and work out how to get there. Oxbridge certainly won't be the only route. If their ambition extended only as far as getting to Oxbridge, it might perhaps explain why they weren't offered a place.

Apologies if the last sentence of my previous post sounds judgemental at all - I just meant that there has to be a bigger picture than which university you go to.

Congratulations and commiserations as appropriate. I am interested n the level of any IB offers? Heard or some people getting offers not requiring 7s in highers and wondering if this is normal?

Great message.

Gettingthrough - I often think that those less prepared fare better. I have come across privately educated applicants who are groomed to within an inch of their life and not popular with interviewers who can spot them a mile off. Often those least prepared are a breath of fresh air for interviewers.

Also on the issue of Oxford I think it's slightly unfair to think that it is full of non cool kids and that it's not 'normal'. It is in fact just another uni, with kids from all backgrounds and cultures (albeit not an even split). Once term starts the experience is pretty much the same as at any other uni. There's nothing to suggest children with additional needs would thrive more at Oxbridge than anywhere else.

I agree with you about the coaching of private-school applicants, Power. I read an article that quoted an Oxford interviewer as saying that when they interviewed an applicant from a private school they were basically trying to see beneath the over-preparation but with state-school applicants they were trying to see beneath the lack of preparation.

Re (re)applying to Oxford or Cambridge, having taken up a place to study elsewhere, the two universities take a different stance on this, viz

Oxford does accept applications from students who are currently studying at another university. Your full academic record would be taken in to account in your application, including your A-levels (or other equivalent qualifications) and study at university level, so we would need evidence of your performance on your university course. We would expect you to be performing at a high 2.1 or first class level (a US GPA of 3.7-4.0). Please note that for our Medicine course, applications willnot be considered from people already studying Medicine elsewhere who wish to apply to study the course from Year 1.
uni-of-oxford.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/547/~/can-i-apply-for-an-undergraduate-degree-course-if-i-am-already-studying-at

Cambridge Colleges will only, as a matter of principle, consider applications from students enrolled in a degree course at other UK universities in very exceptional circumstances
.
www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/find-out-more/faq

I suppose it rather depends how I'm only here pending getting the place I really want is likely to colour your university experience?

Two years ago my daughter was rejected by Cambridge. She was the candidate that school (grammar school that probably gets 1-4 people in a year generally although 5 made it in my daughter's year) saw as a shoo-in which made it twice as bad. We had some fairly horrendous family stuff going on at the time which I'm sure affected the interview phase and in retrospect she should really have filled out the extenuating circumstances form but she wanted to be accepted on merit and not because they felt sorry for her (did explain HEAVILY that that wouldn't be the case but it's irrelevant now!) She was very disappointed but accepted another offer from a top five UK uni and got stuck into revision. On results day she got four A*s which was better than any of those who were accepted by Oxbridge. She briefly considered reapplying but decided she wanted to get started and is now in her second year and loving it. Whilst it's not a case of everyone is a Cambridge reject realistically most of her friends are people who applied but didn't get through the interview or narrowly missed their offer (along with people who chose not to apply of course!) so the standard is high. She's got fabulous opportunities coming up that aren't on offer at Cambridge but is still thinking of applying there for post-grad. Don't think of it as a door closing but as a door staying ajar as you explore through another one.

That is an excellent way of putting it, Marine.

I hate that disappointment is an inevitable part of this process and for some it means dealing with deep disappointment much earlier in their lives than as parents. we would like .

There have been some spot on helpful posts here including the one from Needmoresleep and the one repeating Brasenose’s message.
I continue to see many brilliant (and I do not use that word lightly) students who have not got in. Those who did are not necessarily more intelligent or have less potential, just that in the standardised Oxbridge entrance process they scored more highly, in some cases taken in the context of their schooling. The process will always be an imprecise tool with human bias and luck for interview topics involved.

Coleoptera I would suggest that your DS asks for feedback including his HAT score. That will give him something concrete to do and then assimilate. The feedback may be generic though. The general advice would be not to fixate on Oxbridge, accept his best offer and to leave decisions of reapplication until results day with the feedback in mind as well as the A level results.

I would also suggest that many of the new friends he met at Oxford also won’t have got in and therefore he will be meeting them and others like them at other universities.

Meant to add that my daughter got very detailed feedback from the college she applied to (Pembroke) and interestingly one of the comments was that her GCSEs were lower than the average candidate for her course - she got 9 A*s and 2 As.
We did also look at the application and acceptance rates for her subjects across the colleges (available on tsr) and it was noticeable that the application number for arts subjects was much lower at colleges renowned for stem subjects and the acceptance ratio was greater. She always argued that if she was good enough she would be picked out of the pool if necessary (she was pooled but not fished) but possibly some judicious thought when applying would also have been useful.

Thsi is a lovely video that some of you may want to steer your unsuccessful DCs towards today and in the coming weeks:

I do wonder whether Oxbridge applicants (and parents) are really appreciative of just how subjective the final decision is about who does and does not get in. It is not like any selection process that any of our children will have gone through before. It’s not like striving for a stars at GCSE or a level where intelligence combined with hard work and exam prep will (barring unforeseen disasters) virtually guarantee the desired result. At the end of the day none of these children are applying to Oxford or Cambridge as such. Each of them is applying for a particular subject at a particular college in a particular year. Also it’s really important for them to realise I think that they are competing for the first time on the world stage not just a national stage. Take a look at the origins of some of the successful candidates on the student room forum and it is clear that EU and international applicants do pretty well in Oxbridge applications. What’s more, In that selection process all that really counts is how each individual applicant measures up against each of the other applicants for that particular subject in that particular college in that particular year. So in fact the selection process involves a handful of young people being considered for an even tinier handful of places. That is why it is so true to say that every single person who gets through to interview has done really well. After that , and because interviews are involved, it really is the subjective decision of the individual tutors who will make it on to the final list of offerees. Otherwise computers could make the decision if it was simply a case of GCSE grades plus predicted A-level grades plus admission test scores. It’s so important for our young people to realise that the application process is more akin to a job interview than an objective judgement on their intellectual ability or merit. And as we older, wiser people know – once you are in a job interview situation you never really know why another candidate was preferred over you if you don’t get your dream job. And similarly if you ever sit on the other side of the table in selection processes, you know that when you are confronted by extremely qualified candidates for a position, Subjective judgement really is the ultimate deciding factor. I know it is terribly frustrating but it’s also part of going for something you really want which is why anybody who chooses to put themselves through this application process is already a winner. It speaks volumes about their tenacity, character and ambition. I understand why It’s so difficult for young people to realise this but I do believe the truth is that many of the unsuccessful candidates would probably have had a different outcome in a different year depending on who they were up against. I don’t know if that realisation makes things worse or better though!

Sorry got in a muddle between DTs at some point.

Gosh, it does seem that a lot of us have highly intelligent DCs with SENs!

Mine also does not like to disclose his diagnosis and certainly did not mention it in his personal statement. I do know that the school referred to it in their reference however. Also, when he was invited for interview, I contacted the college explaining the help he would need to navigate the interview process and they could not have been more helpful in putting in place support for him.

As a point of contrast, I have an older DC also with additional needs who has point-blank refused to seek any help for his problems whilst at university. Frankly, this has resulted in numerous crises, many of which could have been avoided if only he were more honest about his situation.

I fully understand the disappointment of Coleoptera's DS who felt he had met a good social group. Do tell him that two-thirds of the people he met and got on well with, will not be going to Oxford. They'll be going to the other top universities for his subject. Assuming he has offers for those universities too, he's likely to meet them again or at least lots of people like them who are also enthused about History.

If he liked the college environment of Oxford, the other universities which offer a similar experience are Durham, St Andrews, York and Lancaster I believe.

Coleoptera I really hope your DT2 gets a Durham offer because since he 's told you that only one of the whole chat group of fellow candidates at [his] college has got an offer then Durham is exactly the sort of place where good Oxbridge History applicants are likely to re-group. I mixed with a lots of historians when I was there (and married one) and I think all of them had applied to Oxbridge. I don't see any signs that things have changed over the (admittedly large) number of intervening years - the department is relatively stronger than it was back then. Now it's among the strongest of all departments in the university.

I strongly agree with this from Powergower: Also on the issue of Oxford I think it's slightly unfair to think that it is full of non cool kids and that it's not 'normal'. I would say that while one or two subjects are susceptible to stereotype, History is not, indeed I think it's probably one of the 'cooler' subjects. Although of course at both Oxbridge and Durham there are arguably more opportunities for 'finding' like minded souls, because of the college system. But initially at least freshers tend to group in subjects - it's as good a place to start as anywhere else. But I do think you should let go of the idea that socially your DT2 needs Oxford, because I reckon that there's every chance that he'd be equally fine in any other uni out of all those he's applied to.

On the question of declaring special needs cinnamontoast, I think one has to respect the feelings of the DC in question. None of mine would have entertained the idea of declaring any special needs/ special circumstances at the time, because they all were set on this thing about being accepted 'on merit'. It's possible that with hindsight they might now do that differently but at the time it was a no no. I think a lot of DC feel this way.

I second pulling up the HAT score. The department replied to my two history DSs at the speed of light: [email protected]
My understanding is that feedback from colleges can be very generic and a bit downbeat because they don't want/ haven't got the capacity to engage too much. The HAT score is objective and numerical though, so may well help.

Cross post so a lot of mine is repetition :)

Zxcv same here . I won’t discuss my children’s diagnoses here but do disclose in advance ! No you’re not your diagnosis but these labels are meant to make it easier for others to understand you might need different treatment.Theres nothing to be ashamed about.

Coleoptera - you can accept a uni place and withdraw your acceptance up to any point before signing any contracts or often even still in the first term often at v little or no cost except accommodation fees. Regarding a gap year - it's really not as bad as it seems in upper sixth and contrary to popular belief, you don't have to do amazing, expensive things - you can learn and contribute so much through volunteering in your local community, and that can all be started up well after results day.

goodbyestranger, I fully understand that many DCs won't want to discuss their diagnoses - mine didn't, and I'm not sure if he even knew that it had been flagged up on his application. My point was that the school should disclose it so that it can be taken into account. Then candidates can truly be judged on merit.

Hubbleisback, I think the points you make are really sensible.

cinnamontoast schools may not be aware of special circumstances or special needs but even if they are, it's not for the school to disclose a matter of that nature that the student doesn't want disclosed. As one gets older one can see that it's about trying to level a field but a lot of young people tend to be proud and it matters to them that they're not perceived as 'making excuses'. Special circumstances and special needs covers a huge range, so we may be thinking of very different issues.

My dc has a SpLD and he never wants to talk about it. I don’t know what will happen when it comes to university applications next year. I also have a DN who is at an excellent university who didn’t want to disclose his dyslexia. I don’t know what the answer is to getting these dc to address the issue. They wouldn’t sit a HAT test without their glasses so why are they going into interviews and tests without disclosing other disabilities?

I would really caution against reapplying unless you are certain your child will be able to deal with being rejected again . My ds has been rejected twice, the first time with 4 x A predicted and the second with 4 x A achieved. He is fine about it and is very excited about the university he will now be going to. However, if he had really had his heart set on Oxford above everywhere else this public humiliation (his words) would have been very difficult. Several of his close friends do have places although none have his grades and he has always outperformed them. He takes the view that his intellect is not being judged, simply his ability to perform in a 20 min interview on a subject which in his case he has never studied.

However, the point I want to make is that what is already a stressful and long drawn out process becomes doubly so if you reapply. I really would have worried about him if Oxford had been more important to him. As it is, I think he will be much stronger for the experience, determined to work hard and prove Oxford wrong and, most importantly, find himself at a university that will suit him much better.

I would strongly recommend a gap year for everyone. They don’t have to be glitzy or glamorous and involve huge travels abroad and we have seen ds mature in a way that will leave him far better equipped for university when he does go.

hypotypo your DS does not need to prove Oxford wrong. He is clearly very bright and will go on to great things I am sure. It is not a judgement about his intellect but rather a feeling that this is not the best teaching style for him.

My dd accepts that her offer was down to luck and the fact she chose to study languages, where Oxford, (apparently) make offers to one in 3 applicants. Dd is on a gap year and applied after her A’level results which also may have helped.

Dd doesn’t think she is any different to any of her friends who have offers from other universities; and all of her friendship group are just excited about the new chapter in their lives.