Oxbridge Applications 2019 (Part Three)

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Today is a big day for many... time for a new thread too

Lumpy : what a shame. But don’t give up , you’re very bright daughter will find her way .

Congratulations and commiserations as appropriate.

I have posted this before but some of you may find it useful:

www.princeton.edu/~joha/Johannes_Haushofer_CV_of_Failures.pdf

Two really important life lessons are:
a) to have a go
b) to accept and move on from failure (if not getting accepted by Oxbridge is in fact failure).

DS was really down after failing to get an offer from Cambridge. This was despite:

1. The fact he preferred the LSE economics course, and was not interested in May Balls or formals.
2. It was always going to be 50:50
3. His very talented and inventive close friend, the sort who won national competitions, also did not get a place.

Part of the problem, I think, was that, like many academic teenagers, he had not really experienced failure. To him failure had been not getting A* in one of his GCSEs.

I am glad his first major setback happened when he was at school/home. The school were supportive, and we deliberately organised family stuff. He thrived at University and was offered a place at Oxford for his Masters (though again preferred the LSE course) and is now has a fully funded PhD place at a well regarded US University. Knowing that the world does not end with a setback, and that it is usually worth having a go, was a useful lesson. Equally his very talented friend has had some amazing opportunites/support at Imperial.

I will rephrase my first sentence. Congratulations to all those DC who aimed high and took part in the process.

In terms of which subject might be "easiest", this is apples and pears. Almost 50% of the year group at DS' school got Oxbridge offers. There were always some surprises - both ways. Maths/sciences tended to be more predictable, in that interviews and performance on apptitude tests are inevitably more subjective with humanities. But competition for Cambridge maths/natsci/engineering is pretty brutal and we know plenty of very bright students who did not get through.

And different Universities will be looking for different things. Cambridge is the only one of the top four economics courses that interviews, and my observation is that they tend to select confident applicants who interview well, and that often the same candidates dont get offers from the LSE, who seem to prefer diffident mathematicians. And we were bemused when a family member, who was determined her son was destined for Cambridge NatSci and quite cross when he did not get an offer, was surprised that he was then the only one in his Imperial tutor group without at least 4A*s at A level.

I hope that everything goes well at A level and indeed that in retrospect getting or not getting the offer is seen as the right outcome. And if it was the dream course, and your DC gets the right A levels, it is worth taking a year out, and reapplying. Even if you still don't get a place, the extra year means there is more opportunity to look closely at alternatives. For example and 18 year old who feels London is too daunting, may change his/her mind once they have seen friends thrive. (FWIW I dont think that amongst DCs contemporaries, the ratio of those who have enjoyed/not enjoyed University is any different at Oxbridge than elsewhere.)

I was more comparing Classics/ Oriental Studies and History or PPE though, so not apples and pears. I do believe that the applicants per place may well be misleading. I reckon more students probably wing it on History or PPE than the more niche subjects, for the reason Errol said.

I’d also like to jump in and point out that results are not everything. Four a*s from a leafy school in a naice area of London may be trumped by four a’s from a dodgey comp in a deprived area of the north or Wales.

Although I might qualify that by saying that it is probably easier in the true sense to get an offer for a subject which is notoriously weak in state schools eg MFL (which has been in a shocking state of decline for over a decade).

So try not to think in lines of my child got better results than X who got an offer, because your child just might not be good at interviews etc etc

It would be good to believe that windowframe.

Even Uniq specifies a 'strong preference' for 8/9/A*. Some students have almost zero chance of those grades, given their school and teaching.

Thus one of our local schools got a single 9 only last summer. Across all subjects. That's hearsay from a pupil though, I haven't checked it (the pupil was the student with the 9).

My son (name change) was the one being talked of above. He is now at Oxford (just gone back - term 2, exam today). He skipped a year at primary so was already a year adrift. He was 16 and a couple of months when he applied for History. He chose his college (small PPH and superb for History) and they asked him in interview if he would defer. He was happy to but had not planned a year off. So, we were in the weird situation when he got his Advanced Higher results of him either going to Edinburgh 3 weeks later or Oxford 14 months later!

He loves it there but would not have been doing so well had he not had the independence of a year off. He studied in Spain, travelled a lot and earned a fortune which is now being spent on beer and parties.

Good luck to all those waiting. DS was told by letter in the post - much harder to wait an extra day for (as he had to) because of where we live being quite remote.

DD is applying to Scottish Universities and will have just as good an experience - but a different one. Rejection is hard, though - I suffered that sting many moons ago.

In terms of actually getting the place, if the offer includes 2A* at A level then unfortunately the 4A poorly taught candidate will be unlikely to be accepted. Courses which are geared with the expectation that the students are going to be able to hit the ground running with an excellent grasp of the required A level material (particularly the case in STEM) really may not be in that student's best interests.

It was probably a sensible call on Oxford's part though wasn't it, in retrospect?

Great to hear that worked out so well for him!

Well, if I were DT2 I'd accept my best offer and the surest insurance, and reassess after results.

Can you start at another uni whilst then reapplying and dropping out of the first? I can't imagine that'd be a good idea at all and am not sure how that would be feasible, financially with loans etc?

No, I don't think so. I think you can only switch after one term, so before you would know.

I think people get a little blinkered by Oxbridge. It's a wonderful opportunity and mostly the teaching is excellent but it isn't the only wonderful education.
If DT2 is really set on Oxford I think the best way to go is to study hard wherever he goes and apply to Oxford for post grad.

Coleoptera this time last year I was where you are now. DS had a rejection from Oxford to study Physics, he was very down, however jump forward a year later & he is having a fab time at University of Manchester, where he has found like minded people.
He was accelerated a year from the age of 5, never really made any friends at primary school, had a few academic friends in his Grammar School but never saw anyone outside of school. He just didn’t get them. However he was determined that he wasn’t taking a gap year so went last September at the age of 17 & 6 months, & as I say has found his feet after a bit of a wobbly start, & loving it.
I too thought Oxford would be the best fit for him, but now I can see that actually they find their feet where ever they go, and I think like minded people generate to each other,

Coleoptera - don't even suggest "not clever enough". Almost all of those who were interviewed are "clever enough", and judging who will gain most from a place is at best, an imperfect process.

Trying again is an option, but I would think only if he is also open to not getting a place and going elsewhere. What I was trying to say in my post is that people will do just fine, perhaps even better, elsewhere.

In terms of gap year, we had this with DD who was applying for medicine without great aptitude test scores. There was a good chance she would not get a place, so the Gap year and a reapplication was very much the Plan B. In the end she got a place, albeit in March, at the one medical school that did not (then) look at aptitude scores, but by then she was tired and wanted a year off, so deferred. Like you I wanted her to be doing something, so it was "work" (luckily in an area that interested her), a ski season and then Camp America. Both the latter can be arranged after easter, an he could look at a job/volunteering that suited him. EH/NT or similar? DD is very glad she took that year off, and the extra year's maturity and resilience helped a lot.

In terms of apples and pears, I meant the students. One of the fiercest intellects DD knows, got a lower grade than her in maths A level. This girl is standout even amongst her contemporaries at Oxford in the subject she is very absorbed in. Would she be stronger than others across the board? No. Which is why comparison is so inexact. Its not just how good a student is, but who else is being interviewed at the same time.

I think people get a little blinkered by Oxbridge. It's a wonderful opportunity and mostly the teaching is excellent but it isn't the only wonderful education.

^^ This. Right now the UK is fortunate to have many world class universities. Focussing on just two seems crazy to everybody else in the world - and insulting to the world leading academics working in other UK universities.

(I say right now because the forthcoming review of fees could well critically damage the UK higher education system beyond recovery. But that's another thread.)

So sorry to hear disappointing news. Just to follow up earlier points re competitiveness (or not) for niche subjects; I think it’s a mixed blessing. Yes, statistically you are much more likely to get interviewed but from limited experience of 2 DCs who have successfully applied for what I now realise are niche subjects, they both had much more limited options for college choice and quite a mixed bag in interviewing techniques.

Both DC applied from a large state sixth form comprehensive with no Oxbridge preparation other than a quick mock interview. Incidentally, neither would have known how many apply to Oxbridge from their year of c300 because there had never been eg an ‘Oxbridge group’ - you could apply if you wanted but no special prep. I only realised from stats further up the thread what a low success rate they had last year. Sometimes it’s best not to know stats in advance!

What both DC shared was a deep and long standing intellectual interest in some really isoteric subjects, nurtured by reading what they could get their hands on. That would have been very hard to create late in the process.

@Coleoptera - My son , on good advice from another poster here, phoned admissions and got feedback on his HAT score. If you think that would help him then I would suggest it is worth phoning and asking. ( DS did it pre interview but I would not be surprised if they have the results still) . I can't say re interview feedback - just never tried so don't know.

I do think all / most universities are big enough to find enough people to be friends with - you don't need to be friends with everyone. There are young people with many different interests all over the place so I wouldn't worry too much about that , if he can try not to.

Cambs website does specify colleges will give feedback on unsuccessful applicants to schools/ colleges - might Oxford do likewise ?

@jabbott1 I find your post reassuring - thank you xx

Good grief, I'm astonished at posts saying that special needs are not being revealed. I fully understand DCs being in denial - my DS, with Asperger's, was in denial for a considerable time - but the school should be mentioning any diagnosis in their reference so it is flagged up by the university and taken into consideration. It is fair on neither the interviewers nor the interviewee if special needs are swept under the carpet.

On the subject of the 'lottery' aspect of getting an Oxbridge place, Brasenose College has put a lovely post on a Student Room thread:

'Getting to interview was a great achievement and many strong candidates could not be taken because there are fewer places available than there are qualified candidates. The majority of those interviewed (60%) could not be made offers. One of these days, we will inevitably miss out on a student who goes on to win a Nobel prize or creates the next internet. The tough decisions really are more a reflection of the limited number of places available today than a prophesy about what you might go on to achieve in life.'

It will take a while for candidates who weren't offered a place to appreciate this, because their confidence will have taken a knock, but in the long term they will understand that it was no reflection on their abilities.

What a fabulous message and absolutely spot on .

Great message.