Is Oxford only for rich families?

[Foslady]

My dd is taking GCSe’s Next year and her school are having various universities in to talk to the pupils. When the Oxford representatives came they mentioned that due to circumstances for one of the colleges there was a very generous bursary you can apply for. This particular college has the course that dd wants to study and now she’s thinking ‘why not?’. I want to support her in all her choices, academically she is quite gifted, and yes, there is a huge time period before university application, but I don’t know if we are the ‘right’ kind of people for Oxford. Up until recently I was a lone parent on a low wage. I now am with my partner but money is still tight (and to be honest if she was awarded the bursary it would be amazing , a massive help). I don’t want to ruin her dreams but at the same time, in reality, are they feasible or am I just kidding myself?

@beanbagladies a lot of Asian parents are unwilling to allow children (daughters particularly) to move out of home. It’s not how the culture works. My own father took it really personally (not Asian but same family structure as found in Asian cultures) when I said I wanted to move out.

One of our DC was at Cambridge and met his girlfriend there. She ticks a lot of diversity boxes - on paper. She’s Northern, state school educated, divorced parents from a non-university educated background, reading STEM subject... except actually she is not remotely deprived or disadvantaged by any standards other than those of the insular boarding school or London day school mindset ie she isn’t spoilt!

Don't forget to factor in imposter syndrome.
They might feel like they have to 'prove' they deserve their place. This may come across as entitled when in fact it's driven by insecurity.....especially if you have other students saying that you are only there because you have had privilege and advantage throughout your life.
We really do have to look at it from both sides. And please don't get me wrong, there will be some who do feel entitled and are genuinely arrogant but that will be a very low proportion of them.
DD (Yr12) would appear supremely confident to anyone that met her. I can 100% confirm that she is a bundle of insecurities - works her socks off, has a massive fear of failure, never thinks she's good enough/pretty/popular enough.
She would also be the first to accept that she has had privilege and advantage however if you told her that's the ONLY reason she has achieved something she would fight you tooth and nail.
I guess what I am trying to say (really badly) is that all teenagers have insecurities, outward appearances don't always reflect how a person feels nor what they think and it's only by having conversations that you can 'see' the real person.
There's far too many negative preconceptions/assumptions and the only way that will change is if people stop saying 'it's not for likes of us' and taking an all private school kids are arrogant privileged b*stards/all working class people are scary and stupid stance, because it quite simply not true!!!

Yes-imposter syndrome is a real issue. As is the fact that it's very hard to be what you can't see. For example some kids are going to be intimidated by the old buildings. If you've been at school surrounded by Gothic architecture you are automatically going to feel more comfortable at an Oxbridge interview than if you've never seen anything but brutalist concrete. Accents, manners-so many things will put kids from disadvantaged backgrounds on the back foot. And it doesn't matter how much you say to them "You're as good as any of these other people-hold your head up" it's just harder than it is for kids from privileged backgrounds.

Agree bpisok, I think you have a pertinent point, reverse snobbery if you will. I want DD to believe she's worthy of an Oxford place, but equally to judge a person on their own merit, regardless of circumstance. There are some twats at her state school too, being less well off doesn't make you likeable.

Oh our family friend knows for sure a lot of it is masking massive insecurity - she said a lot of them clearly felt they had lots to live up to and were always competing to be the best and subtly outdo each other. These two in the queue were clearly trying to show everyone how ‘cool’ and confident they were - who knows what was going on inside. It doesn’t make it any easier to befriend them, regardless of the reasoning behind it...

I see how imposter syndrome would challenge some, yes. Everyone at Oxbridge/other top unis is clearly equally deserving of a place. But ultimately it isn’t a barrier to getting to these places and it is better to acknowledge that your start in life has given you a leg up, so to say. Not to say you haven’t worked incredibly hard to get there and deserve it any less - there just haven’t been as many obstacles as there are for many kids. I hope that makes sense. My DD, family friend and I would never bash people for their background - I’m just trying to articulate that the challenges DD has had to overcome do prevent her from being able to happily move in certain circles and pursue certain goals, and it’s not right to deny that.

It’s as simple as the fact that for DD, getting through school and sixth form with high grades was a lot harder than someone with a simple mc background - ie our family friend. They often discuss this and are comfortable doing so - I think people need to learn to be more comfortable being open about where they’ve faced setbacks and where they’ve been fortunate.

My DD, family friend and I would never bash people for their background
Pancake, you’ve said in an earlier post that your daughter gets angst if she sees posh people so you are now contradicting yourself.
What happens at her work if she meets a posh person?

Feeling unable to talk to them isn’t bashing them?

Sorry, maybe lexical confusion. To me bashing means criticising. She doesn’t criticise - she just can’t engage because she’s intimidated.

Justanothermile I think those of us with DC at Oxford - eg Basilisk and myself - are saying that that is the reality in contemporary Oxford: that the young people judge each other on their own merit, even if initially those from the schools with the larger intakes club together a bit.

Incidentally Bert there's a mass of Brutalist architecture in Oxford, much of it listed. I suspect there's a certain amount lurking in most independent schools as well, so I'm not suggesting any counter advantage, just commenting that Oxford is very far away from being a Brutalist free zone. And this thing about accents is overdone - there's a reasonable mix in Oxford, both at interview and when you arrive as a student. Admittedly more southern accents on the whole but plenty from the Midlands and the north. The one accent you almost never hear according to my DC is a thick Devon burr.

a lot of them clearly felt they had lots to live up to and were always competing to be the best and subtly outdo each

Very much agree with this. There is a whole culture of often unconscious point scoring (unconscious because they have grown up inside it and lived lives too insular to know any better) that is second nature and exclusionary. “Where do you ski?” quickly sorts the them and the us...

To which my DC would say they've never skied and the conversation would move on.

Or move away, goodbye. Our DC have lost count of the number of times that a fellow (Britsh) student has asked them whether they went to a state or a private school. They arouse curiosity because they are hard to place and that curiosity gets the better of their peers.

“Incidentally Bert there's a mass of Brutalist architecture in Oxford, much of it listed.“

I know there is. But I also know that you know what I mean.

It’s amazing the lengths people are prepared to go to to convince themselves that there is no such thing as privilege and the playing field is gloriously even and anyone who says it isn’t must be weighed down with shoulder chips!

My Ds did get asked, Where do you ski?, answered factually, 'never been, wouldn't mind trying it' and had a couple of highly enjoyable (cheap, as far as it goes). ski-ing trips with his mates.

I should think my DC are hard to place too but they don't seem to be a butt of curiosity. I also don't think they'd care that much if asked the question. Why do many people get so complicated about this stuff? These are just young individuals finding out about each other rather than creating ghettos within Oxbridge colleges.

I can see why accents could be scary

• just think of all the baddies in US films with a south London accent. Even the Orks in lord of the rings had south London accents! (Yes, I am a south Londoner, but not a baddie)

Anything different is scary until you are used to it, and then it's not different or scary anymore. You just need to give things a whirl, give people a chance and hope for the best 😀

I think you picked the wrong example with Brutalism though, hence my comment. Shit leaky school buildings would have been better.

Of course privilege exists Bert. I find it good that at Oxford it doesn't really divide the students in the way it divides the older people who make it a thing.

I don't think anyone is weighted down with shoulder chips but I would equally hate for DD to not even try for a place because of this perpetual myth that Oxford isn't for her sort. What sort of parent would I be if I didn't at least try instil belief and aspiration? I'm just speaking personally here.

And I bet there's many that don't try because of this fact. And I think the answers are far more complicated that laying the blame firmly and squarely and only at Oxbridge's door.

The thing about privilege is that there a very long sliding scale of it with many privileged people not feeling very privileged because they are not as privileged as lots of other people they know. I guess there are various different stepping stones of privilege - the first one which means you are well fed, taken to the doctor and go to school etc, which is a lot better than many children get, and then somewhere further up the one which gives you lots of cultural capital whatever kind of school you go to, and then beyond that the rarefied privilege of Eton and numerous holiday homes.

I should think many people at, say, Oxford feel like imposters, even many of the Etonians, because everyone knows how competitive it is and even for an OE these days it's not a sure thing.

My children know how privileged they are, but they haven't lived a less privileged life, so the knowledge is academic in a sense. All young people feel exposed and vulnerable, even the ones who don't seem to.

I rest my case.

Exactly Ontopofthesunset. These are all just young people with a myriad of different character traits whatever their background. No 'privileged' young person should have to apologise for it and 'admit it', as though they were tainted or at the wrong end of a caste system. You don't choose your parents; you tend not to choose your school.

Bertrand you yourself seem really quite privileged, so I'm not sure exactly what case it is you've just rested? That we don't all experience a full range of privilege, by definition? And therefore what?