How involved should you be once child at uni

[swimmer4]

Son isn’t revising for exams. Do we say anything?

Some Oxford courses have exams that count every year.

Swimmer- dd and I actually had a conversation about whether she wanted me to help and if so how. She is too far away for regular visits, so it is all online and by phone. We talked about this "I should be able to cope alone-I'm a grown up" and manages to come to the conclusion that different people reach that stage at different times and she wasnnt there yet. We agreed that we would keep in very close touch, and when things were at their worse, we came up with three things she thought she could manage to do every day. These always included a bit of self care, a bit of work and something else, depending on the day. Making an appointment with student support, making an appointment with her personal tutor- that sort of thing. It was hard for both of us, but it got her through the worst times with deadlines mostly met. It also meant that student support (who were fantastic) were ready to put in place anything she needed (exam halls made her panic, so she was allowed to sit in a little room on her own). I would send her a message in the morning to prompt her to be up and about, and she messaged me when she had done her 3 things. It was very micro managey, I agree, but better than dropping out and feeling that she had failed and wasted two whole years.

She also had non work related issues-an abusive boyfriend, so she needed support to extricate herself from him-which came with a slew of practical and legal problems. So yes, I did get very involved indeed. Not ideal, of course, but better than the alternative.

1. Sorry OP, and I hope ot goes well with your son. It is not easy.

1. Well done Millicent. I hope your daughter has managed to turn the page. Last term was seriously difficult, but things seem to have improved. So I have stopped getting distressed phone calls from DD. She sends me pictures of cute dogs instead.

That said student support seems to have been designed top-down, not bottom up. If there is a crisis parental support/input can be crucial.

Thank you MillicentF and Needmoresleep.
MillicentF your support for your daughter sounds tough on you and 100% crucial. I’m going to take away your 3 things a day tip for when/if we need it.
Take care

I do think, swimmer, that you must take your DS’s views into account. If he is saying, on a number of occasions, that he doesn’t like his course, then you do need to listen. It cannot all be about your desire for him to get this degree if the cost to his health is too high.

I definitely agree with Stranger in that there is all the world of difference between knowing help is available and actually accessing it. Also, DC who have previously been very robust are not always the best at knowing there is a problem. One of my DC fought very hard to control everything herself at school. No-one was allowed to share her feelings. It can be extremely difficult to penetrate their inner anxiety and turmoil to help if they won’t let you.

As an aside, I think there is another reason why drop out rates are low at Oxford and Cambridge: they interview. Part of this is about suitability for the course and the pace of work. People on MN are sometimes too ready to say it’s all about brilliance at your subject, but there’s more to it than that.

I also think that, as there are far more students at university who have gone with SEN, it is likely there will be more dropping out as their needs are not necessarily met. I have read all the Sutton Trust’s reports on disadvantaged children. It is clear that many do need more support but I don’t think contextual offers are the problem because they do not relate to resilience. They relate to A level results and the school attended. DD found on her course that some of the students with the highest grades of A levels needed help writing essays at university. A level results are no guarantee of being a student that doesn’t need help.

The universities with the highest drop out rates are those nearer the bottom of the “standard” league tables. Those nearer the top hang on to more students. This also makes me wonder whether the universities nearer the bottom should revert to being colleges of higher education. Would it be better for some students to work and study on day release? This gives much greater support networks and, crucially, money from earnings. There probably needs to be reform of education available at the lower rated universities and far more employer sponsored courses made available to those who would most benefit.

As an aside, I think there is another reason why drop out rates are low at Oxford and Cambridge: they interview.

Oxbridge just don't take many students who have shown signs of not being able to cope academically with stress/anxiety other issues. A lot of Oxbridge students have mental health issues. Very few of them come in with issues that prevented them getting the A level grades they needed.

Further down the pecking order, universities (have to) take students who had the potential for A stars but dropped down in grades for all kinds of reasons. They (have to) take students whose issues have already encroached on their academic achievements, even before they started university.

Would it be better for some students to work and study on day release?

Maybe it would. But right now we don't understand enough about how to support students who are dropping out. As pp wrote, right through the UK HE certain groups are at much higher risk of dropping out. We don't know how best to intervene to prevent this.

As an aside, I think there is another reason why drop out rates are low at Oxford and Cambridge: they interview.

Yeah, up to a point. But that, and the high tariff, mean that even if they do recruit people who have latent mental health issues, they have obviously been able to control them sufficient to get through a demanding application process and then get the requisite A Level grades.

And what '018 says.

From what DD tells me and her own experience, some sort of early reaching out to a student who may be struggling/overwhelmed, is the key.

Students may be adults but they are not practiced in working bureaucracy, and may be unwilling to present themselves to support services (unless nudged by their mums!)

What might help, as far as I can see, is:

1. a friendly visible presence in halls, like grad students acting as senior residents, who have an understanding of what it is like to be a first year and who can mentor/give advice.

1. Quick, non-punitive, action on non attendence. The first sign of a student who is struggling is when they fail to turn up to lectures. Waiting till exams is too late. And there are all sorts of reasons why a student may not be attending: partying, depression, loss of academic confidence. Early intervention may be all that is needed, especially if the problem is study skills. (Yes it should happen but does not seem to, especially now lectures are available on-line.) In one instance fellow students were sufficiently worried that they reported the non-attendence to the department, thus forcing action.

1. Better co-ordination. University admin can be a bureaucratic maze. DD needed to rearrange some placements for an agreed reason. However got no reply to her emails and follow ups. She had organised swaps, and failure to have this agreed would have led to her failing. Luckily she has SEN support so, after a week of worry, she went to the kind people there, who took over for her. If the agreed reason were depression, and she did not have another avenue, even this small task might have defeated her.

1. Drugs. Drug behaviours seem different and more challenging than alcohol. The Sunday Times apparently reported that there was a 42% increase in students penalised by their Universities for drug use between 2015 and 2017. I know others will disagree but things do seem worse than they were. Better, and more proactive, security (why should an 18 year old be expected to report their flatmates, when the noise is waking up people on the other side of the street) would go a long way to preventing drug use from being normalised. There will be links between drug use and MH problems.

1. Some additional support for those who came through via access schemes, contextual offers or similar. In the way that SEN students have support, and indeed had an event during freshers so had the chance to form supportive networks.

My theepennyworth. Sorry OP for the continued hijack.

“No parent got near a university 25 plus years ago”

And universities weren’t full of any Tom, Dick and Harry either. There were fewer universities and fewer students. Those who didn’t want to study further got a job instead. Nowadays it seems to be the norm to go into higher education, although I’m not sure that this is the right answer.

“I fear that a huge amount of pressure is put on our young people due to this notion that anything less than a degree is a disaster and (to some extent) once in the Uni system they should stay there by hook or by crook despite evidence that screams that it just isn’t working. It’s great that Uni’s are hotter on pastoral care but I do wonder if that just enables unsuited students to limp through a period of their lives that might be happier spent doing something else.”

I agree MrsSnitch

“Also weirdly - those at Uni who had more support from parents seemed to drop out more”

Perhaps these students weren’t suited to university in the first place and were only there because they were pushed by their parents?

“University is a bloody safe and forgiving environment in which to grow into adulthood”

I’m not convinced that this is true. I think far too many young people are pushed into going to university when they aren’t ready or have just had enough of the pressure of constant studying. I would be interested to know how old your children are. DD is 17 and cramming hard for A levels. She is a very young 17 (year 13) and I worry about her being mature enough for university

“rates of mental illness at Oxford or Cambridge (very high, and rising), rates of non-completion at Oxford or Cambridge (very low, and falling)”

That doesn’t add up. Are you saying that the students who are suffering from mental health problems don’t drop out? Is the pastoral care really good there?

“I am constantly amazed to hear people on Mumsnet suggesting that once your child hits 18 they should be cut adrift to sink or swim. It's very odd”

I agree. It is as if they think that all 18 year olds have a homogeneous, self-confident, sensible and mature gene that suddenly kicks into place the minute they step into their hall of residence. If DD goes to university this year she will be just two months past her 18th birthday and as she is already on medication for anxiety you can be assured that I will be concerned for her welfare. I will be hands off unless she asks for my support, and why would I deny her that? I am her mother. I don’t stop being her mother as soon as she becomes 18.

"No parent got near a university 25 plus years ago”

And there were a lot of lonely, homesick, sad and struggling students.

And it would have all been brushed under the carpet as well MillicentF

OH was terribly lonely and homesick in his first year at uni. He was too far from home and too poor to visit often and really suffered.

The difference, I suppose, was that in my day a significant %age of my fellow students came from boarding schools, so it was just more of the same.

I haven't read all the thread, however I do have 2 DC at uni.
DC has mental health issues which although identified whilst at school were never really acted on as they were able to function at a level above their peers and got top A level grades and a highly sort after place at uni.

This is where the issues were highlighted, the conditions did get diagnosed eventually but not until well into year 1, by which time they were already struggling despite having parents who cared and a good friendship group.

Year 2 was the big problem as this is when you are supposed to get on with it, this triggered high levels of anxiety and other MH issues. On our advice our DC dropped out this time last year and deferred the year 2 exams for 12 months. It took 6 months for them to improve their mental health and now 12 months later they have decided not to return.

We sat back at the beginning of year 2, as we belived that our DC should make their own decisions. We were also a 4 hour drive away so only communicated via FaceTime and iMessage, in hindsight it would have been a lot better to intervene earlier before DC health deteriorated so far.

I went to an RG uni from 2003-2007.

No one I knew (course friends or halls friends) was from independent or boarding schools.

With the exception of one girl, no-one I knew was from higher than a lower-middle class background.

Many of us (myself included) were the first generation to go to uni.

One person dropped out. She failed some first year exams and failed the resits over the summer break, but was also very much struggling with a crisis of faith as she was from a very religious background and was finding it hard being away from her very close church community.

Most of us had at least one job at the same time as studying.

No-one was in close contact with home except the girl who dropped out. Most would communicate with home weekly at most, from what I recall of conversations with housemates.

People who found things difficult academically (on my course) seemed to be picked up on by the uni early in the first semester and sent on extra help sessions (ie. essay structure, style, referencing).

We asked our mates on our course for help with the bits we found difficult. So, I was a good essay writer, so I used to proofread a for a coursemate who found it more difficult.

I think the thread has very quickly veered to looking at examples of students with mental health problems. That's not the same as the original post - ds isn't revising for exams, how much should we nag? If any person has a mh issue they will need more help. But just an average 18-21 year old who is maybe being a bit lazy/pissing about/enjoying the social side of uni shouldn't be 'supported' by their parents to do more work. They need to decide that for themselves, or live with the consequences of a not-so-stellar 2:2 or 3rd.

Interestingly, having now taught in private very high achieving schools, I've seen the opposite of the situation posted up the thread about these students being much more resilient because they are used to not being the smartest, etc. I've spoken to quite a few students who've come back to visit school who have really struggled with the transition between "90% or higher is doing well, everything else is unacceptable" of school (which has to be the case if your uni offers grades are As or A stars) and the "well done, you got 65 on your essay, that's great!" they were experiencing at uni. Having spent seven years aiming for and frequently getting full marks, the shock of uni grading was really quite severe for some of them.

I'm sorry your DC has had such a tough time DeathlyPail

I'm inclined to think that people who are dismissive of parents who feel they need to intervene have self confident children who have never suffered from any kind of anxiety. They just don't understand.

There were fewer universities and fewer students. Those who didn’t want to study further got a job instead.

Almost. In actual fact what happened was that there was very little support and nothing in the way of dispensation or specific support 11-18. Therefore, by the time you got to university 35 years ago (source: was at university 35 years ago) anyone with the slightest predisposition to not cope had been filtered off. A Levels were norm-referenced up until 1988, there were for practical purposes no arrangements for extra time / different modes / etc, there was very little continuous assessment and examinations were entirely terminal. In essence, if you could get through A Level, you could get through university: it was absolutely standard to say that A Levels were the hardest and most challenging exams you would ever take, which is I think no longer true.

Not only were parents not involved at university (with some pretty nasty consequences, as MillicentF says) they were much less involved in education throughout, in part of course because if you were at university in the early 1980s your parents were born before or during the war and therefore it would be rare for them to have a post 18 education, and even rarer for them to have gone to a to 3/4 year live-away university. That all adds up to arriving at university at 18 in the early 1980s as being a pretty good mark that you would cope. That's not a system to look to return to.

“rates of mental illness at Oxford or Cambridge (very high, and rising), rates of non-completion at Oxford or Cambridge (very low, and falling)”

That doesn’t add up. Are you saying that the students who are suffering from mental health problems don’t drop out? Is the pastoral care really good there?

As an analogy, consider the Tour de France. Are rates of injury and illness high? Yes. Are rates of completion high? Yes, all things considered, particular the completion rate of stages. Is the long term effect on the health of the athletes positive? Er, no. Oxbridge's support systems are good at getting students, who have already been pre-filtered to be tough, smart and motivated and also have been pre-filtered to have parental support, through their finals. They do that amazingly well. Just as Tour de France doctors are good at putting people with serious injuries back on their bikes to finish the stage.

Oxford and Cambridge have high rates of mental illness, but amongst students who are absolutely focused on, and committed to, completing. Other universities have lower rates of illness, but students who are either less committed to finishing, or who drop out for other reasons (academic, financial, personal) which don't affect Oxford students as much.

Having spent seven years aiming for and frequently getting full marks, the shock of uni grading was really quite severe for some of them.

The courses I teach on have (In the context of the RG) very low rates of private education. We have that problem. Everyone has that problem.

I'm a lecturer. I feel for parents and as a parent I have this yet to come. We cannot though, as others have said, contact parents without express permission.

To do so would be wrong both in law but also in terms of our relationship with our students, who for the most part are young adults.

I had a difficult case in point just today. I encouraged the student to seek support and talk to parents but they were reluctant as they felt the consequences would be more than they could deal with.

All I can say from my point of view is that'll I try my absolute hardest to support my students and this is always health first. I will follow up with my tutee soon, to check they went to referrals for support.

If I have a parent contact me it is hard because I can't say anything to them without permission. This does not mean that I am unaware of issues or unable to offer support. Hopefully with both parental and pastoral support, students find a way through.

Incidentally, I have also had parents contact me when students are having meltdowns at home (often those with sn). I can offer reassurance with factual info so I wouldn't say dont contact tutors but do understand the restrictions we have to operate within.

Keneft how exactly do you come to the conclusion that Oxford and Cambridge 'pre-filter for parental support'? There's such a lot of rubbish said sometimes, the worst of it begs correction.

Yes Bubbles, if a DC says he doesn't like the course parents need to listen. Listening is vital.

Keneft how exactly do you come to the conclusion that Oxford and Cambridge 'pre-filter for parental support'?

Because you need to apply before many schools even start talking about UCAS.

Because you need to attend interview, which involves paying train fares (yes, support for that is available, no, support for that is not easy to access, and is usually on a "claim back" rather than "pre pay" basis).

Because...oh Christ, do you really not see the deep social structures built into UK university admission? 50% of students at Oxford at privately educated. Does that not tell you anything?

"Keneft how exactly do you come to the conclusion that Oxford and Cambridge 'pre-filter for parental support'?"
Well, are there loads of people at Oxbridge withour parental support?

The denial of privilege is just breathtaking.

"Because you need to apply before many schools even start talking about UCAS"

DD's school was talking about UCAS in year 12. They were doing their personal statements in the summer term of year 12.

Need many universities already do what you suggest. (Your DD"s university and your son's are known to be on the lax end.... although in general medicine courses do monitor attendance quite strictly, so I guess you don't mean her course specifically.)

Unfortunately, 2 does not work - you would think it would, and it does for a minority of students, but gently monitoring attendance, tutors gently intervening to ask students why they are not attending does not seem to make a big difference for at risk groups.

And universities do put a lot of effort into 5. Again, this still doesn't seem to stop worryingly high dropout rates amongst students from some ethnic groups.

Drugs is an interesting one. When use of soft drugs is a problem, it tends to co-exist with other issues.