How involved should you be once child at uni

[swimmer4]

Son isn’t revising for exams. Do we say anything?

Basically, and speaking as a middle class person, everything is easier if you are middle class. That's what privilege means.

Absolutely. Which is why Universities should be ready to reach out and support those they have given contextual offers to.

(Actually I think it is a recommendation in a recent Sutton Trust report on contextual offers - as it should be.)

Yes Millicent, although middle class people can suffer from tremendous stupidity and serious character deficiencies. Some things transcend class and there's an idea here that less well off parents are thick and don't care. Extraordinary really.

Keneft if you read my posts the problem is precisely that knowing about it doesn't equate to accessing help, and that's a fundamental of serious mental health issues. If only posters could solve all the problems.

You really are not going to go to a central University welfare department to complain about an inconsiderate flatmate

I agree, this is a serious problem. And, in many universities, more and more of the "university" accommodation is actually at arms length, and the landlord isn't actually the university anyway. And university accommodation is, outside a very small number of older universities, only really available to first years, with almost all second and subsequent year students living in private accommodation.

But again, I'm sorry, this is where money and social capital arises. Parents engage with landlords. And in some cases I know of, parents simply enable their children to change accommodation, up to and including swallowing the price of breaking the lease (or being more willing to say "sue us for it, then"). The flip-side of housing which is not owned by the university is that the university can't withhold a degree because of money owing to a private landlord.

My guess is that DDs University has a higher drop out rate than Oxbridge

Pretty much everywhere has a higher drop-out rate than Oxbridge. The reasons for that are complex and tricky to unpack. It's hard to plot a robust scatter-graph of drop-out versus background because we don't have good data (Polar et al aren't great) and because drop-out rates are low enough that there's a lot of statistical noise. But I would bet a large round of drinks for an entire seminar group that dropout rates are massively inversely correlated with parental support, and the better you measure that support, the stronger will be the effect.

No I'm sure it would be the same at other unis. But really I was engaging with you on the point that Oxbridge is middle class and mental health issues seem to be dealt with pretty well, so that must be about class. Whereas in fact it's about the set up more than anything else.

Cross post. I was replying to your previous one.

"Some things transcend class and there's an idea here that less well off parents are thick and don't care. Extraordinary really."
Who has that idea?

It's implicit in the middle class is synonymous with support mantra. It's unpleasant.

OP I hope things turn out ok for your DS, and for you by extension.

"It's implicit in the middle class is synonymous with support mantra. It's unpleasant"

Ah. I think you are misunderstanding. Middle class people who know how to work the system are more likely to be able to access support. That does not imply that others are thick and don't care.

It's implicit in the middle class is synonymous with support mantra.

It isn't. Are you seriously saying that "one of the definitions of being middle class is being able to navigate middle class run institutions like universities and the NHS?" should be a dirty secret we don't talk about any more? We talk about it precisely because we want to fix it.

And your obsession with how great it is at Oxford is rather opposed to this: an example of a massively middle-class dominated process is Oxford admission, which is precisely why the Sutton Trust, Uniq and so on need to exist. Should we close those down, on the grounds that it's offensive to say that working class parents can't support their children in university admission? Of course not.

IIRC, goodbyestranger's only university experience is of Oxford.

It's implicit in the middle class is synonymous with support mantra. It's unpleasant.

I think there are differences in student's ability to seek support or fully engage, based on a students earlier school experience. A friend was saying that her state educated DD was struggling in her second term with essay structure. I suggested she went along to her lecturers' office hours and sought help. DS had done the same when he has struggled with overlaying statistical concepts. The tutor had taken him out for a coffee and coached him on University study skills which helped solve the problem. My friend suggested her DD would find approaching the lecturer akin to knocking on the school staff room door at lunch-time. Weird. However she did, and like DS, found herself one of a very small number reguarly accessing support that was freely available. I suspect DS simply assumed that he had a right to understand so made sure he did. It then meant that he had access to informed references from staff who knew him, and was invited to be student representative on a couple of interesting departmental things.

Stranger, I suspect it is less of an issue at Oxford, which your DC attended, as the tutorial system will automatically deliver the support, that elsewhere you might have to seek out.

As a family we would always talk through difficult areas with each other. We saw our sons last weekend and the topic was when we should retire, we value their input. DS1 & DS2 both had a few sticky patches at uni, more around settling in and dealing with flatmates than academic work but I think a non judgemental chat over a drink or meal is probably the best form of communication. I've never believed in "pushing" and always tried to ensure anything they are setting out on is what they really want.

I suppose if the degree is something he really wants then your support might be along the lines of getting some help in tackling what needs to be done to achieve that. If the degree course was a mistake then thinking through "where next?" is the answer.

What doesn't get you anywhere is being dictatorial or mentioning what you have paid towards it. It becomes easier when you focus on what you really want for them - happiness - rather than immediate problem solving.

I suspect DS simply assumed that he had a right to understand so made sure he did

That is the heart of the issue right there.

I suspect it is less of an issue at Oxford, which your DC attended, as the tutorial system will automatically deliver the support

That's how it should work. Oxford students unable to get support because their tutor is unsupportive (whether by nature or by ignorance) is hardly unusual. When that happens, the second-line support is harder to access, precisely because it is second-line. In other universities, the first port of call is at least trained and available, with delivering support their main focus.

I was left to sink or swim. I didn't drown. It took me a long time to actually swim though. Combination of being micromanaged by helicopter father who was also emotionally abusive coupled with a mum who died when I was 20 and had been ill for years prior. Let children paddle their own canoes as early as possible but with support.

That is the heart of the issue right there.

And it is not arrogance, in fact the opposite. If you are at a very selective school that gets, say, 70% of A levels at A*, you will have been surrounded by peers who are far cleverer than you and so may not think you are very good at all. But you are used to getting 90% in exams so do expect to understand.

In contrast if you are the first from your school for a decade to get a place at Oxford/medical school with a standard offer of 3 As, and have been "top table" since primary school, University may be more of a shock. You need to make sure you understand, either with help from tutors or peers. And it is OK not to be the cleverest or to seek help.

"I suspect it is less of an issue at Oxford, which your DC attended, as the tutorial system will automatically deliver the support"
Hmm. This may be the way it is supposed to work-and is the received wisdom. But that is not necessarily what happens in reality.

I suspect the other things that result in low drop out rates at Oxbridge are:

-generous and easily accessible hardship grants that are not based on parental income
-short terms means that those with homes to go back to aren’t away for too long
-college accommodation means there’s none of the difficulties of private accommodation
-cheap food available throughout the degree and other things like this means you can keep it together less without dropping out

• final year is the only year that counts so you only have to pass Years one and two to get through

-university run counselling service and lots of colleges also have their own counsellor.

Also, as happened to a couple of people I know- the fact that is is very difficult to say that Oxbridge isn't what you hoped it would be, and you are miserable.

Thank you Astrabees. Your comment is really helpful. I always have good intentions of just listening but it turns into nags, as in previous discussions DS has stated he does want to complete the degree, so when I can see he’s heading into difficulties I can’t help but say something.
This thread seems to have become a class debate & the wonders of pastoral care at Oxbridge. I just wanted some advice with regard to support/ intervening with DS who has accessed some support (on my suggestion - does that make me a middle class meddler or someone that cares and wants to avoid long term mental illness) but is unable to sustain advice given.

Keneft I engaged re Oxford because you made a point about Oxford which was, actually, missing the point! If you notice I hadn't contributed earlier. I tend to speak about things I know about rather than things I don't, hence my references to Oxford. I can spout bullshit about other stuff or places I don't know about if you want, but it would be fairly pointless.

Etymology that's not all correct (eg second year exams) but yes I agree that there are significant differences, which is what I was saying to Keneft who used Oxbridge as an example of something to do class.

..something to do with class.

Etymology that's not all correct (eg second year exams)

Some programmes at Oxford don't even have second year exams, so I'm not sure what point you are making. There is assessment on second year courses, but as it's not done until the third year that's not the same thing from a progression perspective. Other programmes have exams and progression decisions at each stage. It varies. So what was said was true for some programmes. What you have experienced may be true for other programmes. In general, second year exams are more common in STEM at Oxford, less common in humanities.

Keneft some courses certainly have second year exams which count and others don't, is the point I'm making. Not all courses have only terminal exams. And yes, the latter tend to be arts and humanities. But so what? I didn't think I needed to go into detail and supply a complete list of courses!