Medical School Pondering

[kaykay72]

Hi all,

I’ve been reading a bit of the epically long medical school application thread, you all seem so knowledgable about the unis and the process, that I wondered if you could give me some thoughts on our situation please?

D has wanted to be a surgeon for as long as I can remember, used to aspire to go to Cambridge but wavers in that now. Strong academic and sporting record. Developed an illness in the run up to her GCSEs, sat exams (pre diagnosis but on diagnosis was told illness had been present around 6 months before exams, came out with 6A, 3A, 2B. Ended up missing year 12 due to treatment and extended hospital admission, but has fought like a warrior and restarted year 12 with next cohort. School have already said that she’ll have a medical attachment to her UCAS form to explain gap and the opinion that she underperformed at gcse due to illness. First half of year 12 going well, medical situation all good. Has part time job, is currently predicted A, A*, A - and school don’t give predicted grade for further maths at this point. Is back at her sport, working her way back up (she was a national level competitor), completing a diploma in this which carries UCAS points (equivalent to a B grade A level) and has just passed a coaching qualification as she coaches a bit at her club. Trying to fit in some WE/voluntary work but difficult to access and fit in with study/work/training. Has booked (and self funded) an overseas medical work shadowing trip later in the year.

She’s starting to shortlist unis for 2019 - she’s looking for places that do dissection rather than prosection, would prefer a campus uni (has a non medic family member at Nottingham, where they also cater well for her sport) and does not like the idea of too high a proportion of PBL

I’ve got little idea of how the various scoring systems work or which unis might suit or consider her - or whether Cambridge is still a reasonable goal for her (although she’s not sure their course is what she’s looking for). Can anyone offer any advice or opinions?

Thank you 😊

Stranger, I think you may be putting words into people's mouths. And that posts suggesting that students can have a good career without going to Oxbridge may be reflecting your earlier assertions.

"But if you took a look around at the consultants and surgeons doing pioneering work I expect you'd find a pattern of Oxford, Cambridge and London out of the UK trained medics."

etc.

This reflects a view often exhibited in posts about law where seemingly DC dont stand a chance unless they studied at Oxbridge (or perhaps Bristol!). I really dont know if the same is true for medicine. I know it is not the case for economics where two of Britains best regarded yound economists studied at York and Nottingham.

Nowt wrong with Oxbridge, but round my neck of the woods, and at times on MN, you might think that it is the be-all and end all. I would like to think that those kids who are just as bright and talented, and just as hard working, but who for various good reasons decided not to apply, have every chance of a good career, even if a small number of patients may not want them as their GP. This, I think, is important given the way that pupils not from indi/grammar, will often duck BMAT.

No I'm just reading posts Needmoresleep.

Of course lots of other unis and courses are incredibly good and I agree that there are some curious threads where mothers seem to be limbering their eleven year old DC up for an Oxbridge future, but it is quite funny how anti Oxbridge the medical threads are, and I can only assume it's because the overwhelming majority of DC discussed on them aren't Oxbridge applicants. Quite why it's thought necessary to explain to the gathered assembly why a particular DC didn't apply to Oxbridge even though they were easily capable of bagging a place I don't know. But it's even less necessary to keep on slagging those two schools off and quoting random consultants to shore up the argument that Oxbridge students are somehow lacking in some way or another. It just seems so chippy. And it is actually without any foundation, as a general theory.

After all if you don't want to deter able but not advantaged students from applying to medical schools in general how about also not deterring the very able in that group from applying to Oxbridge with all the additional financial help available and all the other opportunities that those two unis can give?

that was my precise point - why bring in the personal point about your own DC? What relevance is it that they chose not to apply? I really don't get it. But then I don't suffer angst easily

oh I see, you've assumed that my DD is not holding an offer from O or C... now why would you assume that? That may be one reason why you may not have 'got it'

maryso I took your tortuous sentence to mean that your DC had chosen not to go to Oxford or Cambridge, because that was pretty much what it said. Frankly I've found it very hard to follow a number of your recent posts, on the grounds of the writing being extremely unclear. I think the only thing you've actually said about your DC is that they applied to London medical schools because they wanted to be near home so on that basis I might have put two and two together because the last I knew was that neither Oxford nor Cambridge were in London. But I mean also - does it matter, unless you're going to comment on Oxford or Cambridge in terms of the course or uni etc?

intercalation is generally about deciding if you want to pursue a career in research - and picking up a few extra points for the F1 selection process that may give you the edge when applying for posts. However the first student I was ever asked to advise (not my own child and now happy in their chosen specialty) aced the SJT and would probably have got their choice of F1 anyway. They did intercalate, put them off research forever.

Cambridge is actually quite flexible in what you do when intercalating. You don't have to stick to Natsci (although there are a few courses you can't do). Most students see the advantage to their future career in doing something relevant to medicine. They dont generally want to leave their friends but if they had a good reason to go elsewhere I've heard of people doing so.

There are other medical schools besides Oxbridge where clinical contact in the earlier years is limited, Imperial and UCL are really very similar.

Public schools are not invariably bad at preparation for medicine. Eton run this day (open to anyone ) useful for those at the start of the process www.themedicportal.com/event/the-medic-portal-aspire/

goodbyestranger so it is down to someone else that you read what is not there or put words in others' mouths... well it was interesting chatting but life is too abundant to waste on tiger mumsnetting so good bye and have another

It's so sad that so many of these medicine posts descend into this kind of argument. The OP was just seeking advice and many of us have some good experiences to share. Can't we just agree that all medics are marvellous or they wouldn't have got through the course, wherever they did it?

sluj the reason I respond (when I shouldn't I know) is when a very, very tiny number of posters get personal. Their problem being chippy I know, but yes, MN would be pleasanter without it.

He had good GCSEs and didn't want to do the UKCAT as well as the BMAT so those things indicated certain places. It took about fifteen minutes of his time to check out the bottom lines, although of course he already knew of certain reputations eg Birmingham (then) very keen on a flood of As etc. This didn't require any input from anyone other than him*
Just to point on this. As you've ackowledge, with your DS good GCSEs and not doing the BMAT, and maybe other factors, the research required might not have been as intensive as it's been for others. You and your DS might also have taken for granted some knowledge you already had about the process.

DD attended the local comp which I don't think has ever had a pupil attending med school, at least not in the last 5 years. When I attended parents evening in Y10 and I told teachers that DD was intending on attending Med School, she/I were told that she would easily get in as most likely to get all As at her GCSEs. Speaking further, it became evident that they didn't have a clue that getting 'only' As was actually more of a weakness than a strength when it comes to applying to Medicine.

As it is, DD 'only' got two A* and two Bs, so she started at a lower position than most applicants. Then she got a band 4 at the SJT, so she thought her chances were over at this stage. The research that was required to find out where she still had a good chance was not as straight forward. So yes, I did help her with that part of the application. She was at the time at school from 8 to 5 every day, volunteering at a nursing home Monday evening, coaching tennis on Tuesdays and Thursdays evenings, also playing herself on Thursdays, baby sitting every Wednesday, Working a 12 hours shift every Saturday and volunteering at the hospice for 4 hours every other Sunday. She did the UKCAT in August and the BMAT 3 weeks later. That same week, she also did a three week placement at a GP practice. I didn't think it was unreasonable to take on the task of some research.

Each case is going to be different. Personally, I find it sad that some excellent candidates won't get a place, and maybe decide to give up on a medicine career because they didn't have the support from their school or parents. It is possible to be self-reliant, entrepreneurial, independent and self-motivated and still appreciate some help with direction. Let's not forget that most kids are expected to start the process when they are only 16/17. They will grow in the 12-18 months before they show their maturity at interview.

He had good GCSEs and did do the BMAT. He didn't see any point doing the UKCAT. He too did full day shifts to earn money etc etc (all that activity is really quite common).

Helping your DC doesn't need justification, my point is simply that this process isn't shrouded in impenetrable mystery and any applicant capable of a medical career should be capable of doing it relatively speedily themselves. Nothing is super complicated about it for an ordinary applicant. If parents choose to help (or no doubt in some case take over) the process, completely their choice but that's the exception as far as I can make out in the real world, although admittedly it seems to be the norm on MN. Appplicants shouldn't be made to feel that the process is incapable of navigation without buckets of additional help.

He had good GCSEs and did do the BMAT
So he had to pick 4 schools out of 7 choices. Well yes, I would have thought the research required was quite straight forward in that case.

Sorry goodbyestranger, but I don't think you can compare picking 4 out of 7 schools with 4 out of 32 when it is so crucial to pick the ones you are most likely to succeed. No offence but I'm pretty sure my DD would have managed this easily too. As it was, she had, as most do, go through every detail of each school admission criteria, reading many tsr threads to find out threshold for interviews and success ratios.

DD first offer came down to one GCSE point. When we first looked at eligibility, we discarded St George because it said that they considered heavily GCSEs for interviews. Reading their website in more details, we then learnt that they required an average of 8As and that once the minimum requirement was met, only the UKCAT mattered. DD scored just one point over this minimum. We then look for evidence that they didn't take the SJT into consideration and that in the past three years, she would have met the UKCAT threshold, hence making it a choice.

As it was, she got an interview earlier on and an offer a week later. This inevitably boosted her confidence and allowed her to feel more relaxed going to the other interview.

It's nothing to do with it not being complicated but with it being time consuming and labour intense. Maybe it's common for applicants who only do the BMAT to not require any help, but that alone is not common and indeed, I do not know anyone who has felt confident enough to only take the BMAT and assume they would score well enough not to need to take on the UKCAT.

Both DS and a close friend at his school did exactly that - BMAT only and no UKCAT. He got three offers and she got four. I doubt they're unique. They had to decide what they were doing in exactly the same way as everyone else - false logic to say they didn't. On that basis you could say your DD had to decide four choices out of only four options. DS and his friend also had to look at the type of course etc. It ended up being BMAT only but they still had to get to that point. So, just the same at the starting point as everyone else.

Can’t we just accept that different students will have varying experiences when applying depending on their different strengths and support network,age at application , experience etc .Most would agree that medicine does have particular requirements that those unfamiliar with the system find demanding.Threads like this have the capacity to be very helpful ,it would be great if it wasn’t derailed by those who find such support unnecessary.

Of course they are unique, firstly because they would have to have had a majority of A*s GCSEs and then the confidence in their academic capabilities to score high on the BMAT before taking it.

This wasn't the case for my DD. She is intelligent in that she assimilates and retains information well and she can relate her knowledge well orally. She however lacks the skills to do so in written exams and doesn't care much revising for tests. She managed to do well enough in her BMAT and UKCAT to guarantee herself interviews with these scores, but she certainly didn't feel confident that she would.

I'm sorry but not having gone yourself through the process of sifting through 32 different schools to decide which one your child would have the best chance at of an offer, you cannot be in a position to comment on the demand of such a process. I very much doubt your DS spent the long hours some of us mums did to decide that he would only apply to BMAT schools, and of course, your DS didn't experience the demand of practicing for the UKCAT and the BMAT, the latter of which my DD took only three weeks after the former and still managed to score much above the threshold for BSMS.

This is not a competition of who has worked the hardest. Our children are all different and some aspects of the process will be harder on some than others. However, like other posters have already stated, I don't see the point in minimalising the experience of others, when your own child hasn't been through the full process themselves.

It would be like me saying that I don't understand why mums get so worked up waiting for outcome of interviews, when I was in the very fortunate position that my DD was one of the first kids to get an offer just before Xmas.

Your DS got three offers so did my DD, yet going about it totally differently. My DD went to below average comprehensive schools, but she had a mum that could help her with the research. Others got no help from their parents, but maybe an advantage from a better education. No need to undermine any of them.

Woodenhill the thread isn't being de-railed. It's a perfectly valuable contribution to say to some mothers out there that actually MN gives a way over the top impression of the difficulties of the application process and your DC should be capable of negotiating it on their own. It used to happen on 11+ threads too, that vast amounts of support was needed to pass and the 11+. It's not true for either process but decidedly off-putting for those without the resources to help. I'm perfectly happy to be slated for saying it's all right for me (for whatever reason - lots are always suggested) but actually there's a vast number of posts emphasising the stress of the process and the difficulties involved. That can really sap the confidence of many parents. For those wishing to direct their DCs' applications then obviously you're entirely free to go ahead, but please allow others to try to reassure the more usual parent that it's frequently going to be superfluous and that web sites are designed for applicants to find their way around easily, without the aid of an army of parents.

My daughter navigated the websites entirely without my aid and received all 4 offers for medicine. The original post is asking for advice and repeating ad ifinitum that you don’t think anyone needs advice is not helpful .

swingofthings I have never said I don't understand why a long wait is tough. Indeed I've said and believe the opposite. But to say I don't understand the demands of the process because I left my DS to his own devices is another piece of incredible flawed logic! No point repeating what I said in my post above to Woodenhill but simply because you and a large number of other mothers on these threads choose to make the process uber demanding doesn't mean it has to be uber demanding.

Incidentally no-one at the medical schools seemed the slightest bit concerned that DS and his friend swerved the UKCAT. You don't get brownie points for taking a pointless test (by which I mean pointless in their case). He was rejected at an early stage before interview by one medical school but it was his least favourite so although my doing extra research on his behalf might have seen the flaw in his application to that school (Bristol), he was fine with offers from his top three. My intervention might have got him a fourth offer, but in terms of practical outcome it hasn't mattered at all.

Woodenhill there are other parents out there too. MN medical threads spawn concern and worry for a lot of people.

". . . I do not know anyone who has felt confident enough to only take the BMAT and assume they would score well enough not to need to take on the UKCAT."

But then swingofthings, you'll have to take everything goodbyestranger says with a large tablespoon of salt. For example, the claim that her DC achieved 6As at A-level but for some strange reasons which does not include Maths for a degree like Medicine, while everyone else is struggling aiming for just 3As; in addition to scoring 12As at GCSE while others will be jumping for joy with 8 to 10As.

Makes you wonder too why the deliberate and conscious attempt to dodge the UKCAT which is demanded by appx. 90% of all UK med schools, including Imperial and Oxford (for graduate entry).

Oh btw there were only 4 BMAT schools in 2012.

Also, subjects like EPQ and Critical Thinking don't count as A-level never mind As. We can't have everyone beginning to count their scout badges turning them into As . .

peteneras DS and his friend both got 12A at GCSE which I haven't mentioned on this thread because it's besides the point. He did, it's true, also get 6A which didn't include Critical Thinking although it did include an EPQ so if you like I should more accuratel say 5A at A Level and an A in the EPQ. I'm happy to bet a very large amount of money on this since I have the certificates to prove it in my desk upstairs! Would you like to take me on? :) if there's anything else you'd like clarification on peteneras I'm sure I can help you out.

PS I never mentioned grades at all.

Also peteneras you said your own DS got 12A* so why the issue with others also doing the same? (and without the advantage of Eton).

Once peteneras comes on I tend to shift off to more congenial things but - and we've had this question before, but it hasn't been answered by peteneras - why would these two students do the UKCAT when their top choices were Oxford, Imperial, Birmingham and Bristol, none of which wanted it? There's more to life as a 17 year old than the UKCAT. Both went to their first choice college at Oxford, both have had a great six years at the uni, both have just got their first choice of F1 deanery (they're still close friends). If you can indicate how not doing the UKCAT has impacted negatively then I'd be glad to hear. As far as I can see it allowed them a bit more time on the beach in the summer of Y12 - surely no bad thing?

My issue isn't with the number of A*s. It's the lie and the deliberate misleading statements that's put out to falsely lead others to believe something that's not true. Talking about helping other parents going through the process . . .

I don't understand your issue at all then peteneras. Your issue really seems to be about any DC who has achieved highly, possibly (not sure about this) unless the DC went to Eton and you seem to be nearly apoplectic about any DC who got a place at Oxbridge for Medicine, possibly (not sure about this) unless they went to Eton. That seems the nub. I haven't put out any misleading comments that I'm aware of on MN and certainly none calculated to be unhelpful, only ever the reverse. Clearly I've helped people because they say I have! So that's good. I myself don't have a problem with other people's DC achieving highly - just tend to think good for them and carry on.