Medical School Pondering

[kaykay72]

Hi all,

I’ve been reading a bit of the epically long medical school application thread, you all seem so knowledgable about the unis and the process, that I wondered if you could give me some thoughts on our situation please?

D has wanted to be a surgeon for as long as I can remember, used to aspire to go to Cambridge but wavers in that now. Strong academic and sporting record. Developed an illness in the run up to her GCSEs, sat exams (pre diagnosis but on diagnosis was told illness had been present around 6 months before exams, came out with 6A, 3A, 2B. Ended up missing year 12 due to treatment and extended hospital admission, but has fought like a warrior and restarted year 12 with next cohort. School have already said that she’ll have a medical attachment to her UCAS form to explain gap and the opinion that she underperformed at gcse due to illness. First half of year 12 going well, medical situation all good. Has part time job, is currently predicted A, A*, A - and school don’t give predicted grade for further maths at this point. Is back at her sport, working her way back up (she was a national level competitor), completing a diploma in this which carries UCAS points (equivalent to a B grade A level) and has just passed a coaching qualification as she coaches a bit at her club. Trying to fit in some WE/voluntary work but difficult to access and fit in with study/work/training. Has booked (and self funded) an overseas medical work shadowing trip later in the year.

She’s starting to shortlist unis for 2019 - she’s looking for places that do dissection rather than prosection, would prefer a campus uni (has a non medic family member at Nottingham, where they also cater well for her sport) and does not like the idea of too high a proportion of PBL

I’ve got little idea of how the various scoring systems work or which unis might suit or consider her - or whether Cambridge is still a reasonable goal for her (although she’s not sure their course is what she’s looking for). Can anyone offer any advice or opinions?

Thank you 😊

swingofthings that analysis of type seems to sum up what to aim for very well.

Cross post with alreadytaken. I'm sure there are dicks at all medical schools alreadytaken. Going to a non Oxbridge uni doesn't make someone not a dick anymore than going to Oxford (can't speak for Cambridge :)) makes them one.

alreadytaken the reason I don't do research for my DC is because I try to let them have ownership of their lives and have faith in them, which they know. A truly tigerish mother would be feverishly researching at ungodly hours, not sitting back and making a virtue of it! Honestly, the desperation of some theories propounded on here....

I forgot to mention the sporting issue. A medical career is a difficult one and the junior doctor time very pressured. At some stage difficult choices have to be made about work/life balance. It's true of many careers but the anti social hours of medicine can make team sports more difficult to manage. Something for her to consider wherever she decides to apply. One advantage of Oxbridge for her would be involvement in college level sport if she wanted to continue but at a lower level/ is still working her way back up. However there are often medic teams at any university, some have a heavy drinking culture attached.

All medical students are asked how they would handle stress and hobbies that can be pursued when you are on attachment at a hospital miles from your friends are well regarded. Nowadays they'll be on Facebook and/or netflix, it's less important than it was. I dont think I've seen a student put that down on a personal statement yet

6A*s doesnt rule you out from Cambridge which values later results more than earlier ones. I would not personally want a child who suffered any illness made worse by stress to be in some colleges.

And I agree with the person who said bought in overseas training is less well regarded. She can talk about teaching skills (coaching), team co-operation, understanding of what a medical career entails from seeing what doctors did. But having seen more than one type of medicine is an advantage, there are some pretty surprising changes as they go through medical school and junior doctor stages in what they find appealing. She could use her experience of being a patient when asked to describe good and poor patient interactions, she needs to be careful how she describes any bad interaction. Mitigating circumstances are best played up by the school.

On the sporting front the pre-clinical years at Oxbridge aren't anti-social although the workload is heavy, so university level sports aren't actually impossible, any more than they are for any scientist at Oxford or Cambridge. The point alreadytaken makes about college level sport is good though. College level sport is one very good bonus at collegiate unis.

I also agree with alreadytaken on the mitigating circumstances front. It's far better for the school to deal with that and especially when applying to a high pressure uni if the illness is question - and obviously I'm not suggesting anything in this case, I couldn't possibly know - is a mental health issue. That needs delicate handling, especially for a high workload course.

My favourite WE to talk about is when somebody has worked a lot of supply HCA (or maybe that's called nursing assistants now). Anyone willing to stomach being at bottom of pecking order & regular drudge gets a favourable start to the interview.

I'm just going to say this and then leave the thread.
I find it quite insulting that some posters are being rude about a factual conversation I have had with someone from RCS. I have not said it is essential to intercalate to become a surgeon. I merely thought the OP's child might be interested in doing that to expand her knowledge in a particular area. Yes, most universities allow you to intercalate but it is more popular at some. I think it would be easier to reintegrate into your medical course if 40% of your class had intercalated.
Many of the medical schools we visited on open days stated that the NHS wanted graduates who would become GPS or work in geriatric medicine. They inferred you should not put yourself at a disadvantage by ignoring that when applying.

Those of us whose dc have gone through the application process successfully are generally happy to pass on any information gleaned along the way to parents going through it in subsequent years.

Please don't ruin that by belittling them.

Good luck.

I'm not being rude about you, Decorhate; I'm just saying you're wrong on each count. I can understand why you might make those assumptions, as a non-doctor, but you are wrong - and it's important that people on these threads don't make choices based on your incorrect assumptions.

All medical schools want to train surgeons (as well as GPs etc). I'm not sure what you think the difference in training would be anyway - GPs do need to understand anatomy, you know! It's fine to intercalate at all medical schools, not matter what percentage do.

All UK medical schools give a good education. Choose a medical school where you think you will thrive - doing well and being happy are the most important foundations for a strong career.

" I suspect you may be more grateful for those posters' advice than for mine (each with one DC going through the process in consecutive years, mine in the middle) because their own views align much more closely with your own on how to approach the process (particularly alreadytaken's) and how incredibly special these DC are when compared to all of their peers (peteneras). It's natural that a contrary view is disparaged."

No actually. I had already been warned by the dad whose bright older son did not listen and got four rejections first time round. Three acceptances a year later, when he used a more strategic approach.

Unless you are suggesting that paying attention to medical schools stated criteria and matching your strengths accordingly is a "view".

Already Taken, Peternas, and a kind poster from Cumbria whose name I have forgotten, gave good suggestions of places to consider with no BMAT, a so-so UKCAT, but relatively strong academics and PS: Belfast, Birmingham, Nottingham etc. We are all limited in our experience, in some cases to one or two DC. Sometimes this experience is general and sometimes specific. It is useful for people to read that some DC find the medical school application process straightforward. However I don't believe this is a Universal experience.

On sport, most Universities seem to have medics teams, which allow you to play at a casual level. We once met a non medic who had chosen to play with a medic team because the drinking culture in the University team was so extreme. DD plays for a University team but does not expect to be able to keep up with training requirements beyond pre-clinical. And even so she is unusual. Nor is she able to devote enough time to challenge for a place in the first team. I am sure you could balance medicine and sport if you were very determined and organised, but other things would have to give.

It is really worth looking at inter-calation options when selecting medical schools. Some do not offer any, and some limit you to your University (including, I think, Cambridge, where you can select something from NatSci in your third year.). DD seems to be able to do anything, anywhere, though there are plenty of interesting options where she is, especially if she were to want to study pediatrics or neurology. I am sure that Oxbridge medics learn more science; they spend three years learning science. But assume that intercalation allows those on more hands on courses an alternative way of acquiring an indepth knowledge of the science behind a chosen speciality. Though not, presumably, the only way.

I also suspect Decorate is correct in suggestion that the NHS is keen to recruit would-be GPs and geriatricians. DD has been surprised at how many on her course want to be GPs, and whose main focus is to gain the knowledge that will enable them to be effective. This is in sharp contrast to her peers at her academic London school, almost all of whom went to Oxbridge/London and with great ambitions. This may change, as bits of the course spark their interest. Or life gets in the way. A part-time doctor friend claims that she is the only one of her Cambridge friendship group who was still practicing in her mid-thirties. The rest had married well and were SaHMs.

Needmoresleep playing to your strengths/ preferences is a very good idea, obviously. I don't think I've ever said otherwise. DS1 played to his strengths too, like any sensible person. He had good GCSEs and didn't want to do the UKCAT as well as the BMAT so those things indicated certain places. It took about fifteen minutes of his time to check out the bottom lines, although of course he already knew of certain reputations eg Birmingham (then) very keen on a flood of A*s etc. This didn't require any input from anyone other than him.

My issue is with the - very discouraging - ethos on MN medical threads that the process is enormously difficult, enormously draining, that no child without a super hero mother willing and able to put in time to 'research', will hit the jackpot and that these DC are somehow incredibly special. The word stress is used again and again. I don't believe that these DC are the tiniest bit more special than other DC inclined to different paths. This alleged enormous challenge wasn't true for DS but much, much more persuasive is the fact that it also hasn't been the experience of the DC that I've known going through the process from our school over the past ten years. And no, no help is given with UKCAT or BMAT at school and a single interview is given as practice (albeit by a fantastic teacher). A number of DC on the medical threads are from medical backgrounds or indies and it's the deterrent nature of the attitude for DC with neither of those advantages that's the problem.

Thank you all for your replies - I’ve had the answers to many of my questions - and many questions that I didn’t even know to ask

She’s dropped the further maths so that she can really focus on getting the grade up on her weaker subject, she’s working at a* in maths and biology but a low a in chemistry. School wanted her to decide after mocks in the late spring but she pushed the point that the predicted grades on the UCAS form come from the mock exam results so she needs that extra time now. She’s also sent out some emails chasing some voluntary work as she now has a bit more time to fit it in.

Her sport isn’t a team sport per se. She doesn’t aspire to be a full time international elite, she just wants to see how far she can get within the time she has available around her studies. She’s realistic that her illness and the time out resulting from this put paid to any hope of an elite career - but in a way that makes it easier. It’s a sport that is a life long pursuit for many, it’s not a young person thing specifically, and she enjoys the coaching side too, she definitely plans to fit it around her studies when she can but not get too stressed about it.

She’d already started a spreadsheet, but is adding more to it about selection processes - fully taking on board that she should target the unis where she would have the best chance of interview with her profile, rather than the places she likes the look of. She’s pretty much shelved the thought of Cambridge as there are courses elsewhere that she feels she’d be a better fit for. She’s favouring Nottingham or Kings but is also pondering whether to do the bmat as Brighton looks to be a good option - she’s looking at unis a lot more objectively now. She’s also considering options if she doesn’t get a place - whether to do a degree in a biology/anatomy type subject the postgrad medicine, or to look for a healthcare job for a year and reapply, there’s a new med school opening fairly locally in 2020.

In terms of her PS, she’s contemplating whether to use her illness as a positive thing. She’s gained insight from the patient perspective in several different settings. She’s shown many very valuable personal qualities in her recovery. And she’s gained a lot of self awareness, coping skills, and maturity. Her view is that the selectors will see it anyway so rather than playing it down she could say ‘yes, I’ve had this experience but I’m stronger because of it and these are the reasons it makes me a strong candidate’. There’s a careers thing at school shortly where they should be able to advise her whether this is wise - or not!

Thanks for all of your views. We have other kids at university (non medical), this is a much more complicated process. One knew the exact course and uni they wanted to do for career reasons and got an UC offer very quickly. The other drew up a shortlist based mostly on uni ratings and reputation in the subject, went to some open days, and picked the ones he felt had the best vibe...

Kaykay, DD briefly mentioned her illness in her PS by saying that her recent experience as a patient had helped confirm her desire to be a doctor. Useful as the first sentence is the hardest. It turned out to be handy as she effectively lost the summer holiday so by the time she got an offer she was exhausted, and so easy then to ask to defer to give her a bit more time to get over it.

Stranger, you seem to believe that indies deliver more than they do. DDs school was academic and they sent truck loads to the more academic BMAT schools (Oxbridge/London). DD would have found it easier if she had taken BMAT, but to do so would have meant her doing less of things she enjoyed like sport or school activities. Teenage years are for living as well as ticking medical school boxes.

I don't think her school, and similar, are particuarly good at preparing kids for applications to all medical schools. I don't know if stats are available but observation suggests that DDs cohort are far less likely to come from Private or Grammar, than her peers at Oxford or Cambridge. Despite the fact that Grade requirements, at least for Oxford, are similar. (After two terms she has yet to come across anyone from the more well known academic private schools. My guess is that at Oxford your DS would have met several in his first week.) Interestingly a friend, who was applying in a gap year following illness, credits DDs advice and experience as being more helpful in getting offers at similar non-BMAT schools than advice from school. And indeed when she went back to her school to speak to the next group of applicants, the school made clear that her PS was quite specific and not necessarily useful all medical schools. (Very little about academic interest in medicine, but lots about enjoying and learning from volunteering and shadowing.)

I am assuming the other DC you mention were also at a high performing and academic school, who regularly sent pupils to medical school. My guess is that it is very different for those whose schools may not have sent students to medical schools for a decade.

Where we differ is that my belief is that applying to medical school can be complicated especially if academics or aptitude tests are patchy. And that it is helpful to emphasise this, to help other applicants research what is required and where to apply. You believe it is more helpful to suggest that the process is simple and that necessary research should only take 15 minutes, otherwise applicants may be discouraged.

Ah well. Lurkers have both views and can make their own minds up.

kaykay I've known a DC who missed a year in sixth form at school and was seriously sub par for much longer than that simply having the following written in their reference: '....and this was achieved against a backdrop of serious illness'. No further mention. The illness and what illness it was only need be mentioned if your DD elects that it should be mentioned, but there is no requirement whatsoever that it should be. Her choice.

Needmoresleep just to say that taking the BMAT doesn't in any way preclude enjoying teenage years to the full! It's a November test and didn't seem to require much extra time (assuming you're taking three sciences). It didn't seem to remotely impinged on ordinary social/ sporting/ extra curricular life.

Yes. However DD was recovering from serious illness so something had to give. Plus she saw some advantage in getting away from the super selective (indi and Grammar) competitivity, and to opt for a different style of teaching. When asking around, DD picked up a range of views about whether the Oxbridge approach produces better doctors. One senior consultant was quite clear that she had been underwhelmed by Oxbridge FY1s working for her, and their relatively poor (compared to those from other medical schools) communication skills. I dont think DD regrets this decision. She likes the longer terms, the variety of academic and practical, and the choice of intercalation options.

Needmoresleep it's widely acknowledged on MN threads that Oxbridge medics are arrogant tits lacking in basic communication skills as well as empathy, it doesn't need further repetition!

All sorts of things are said on MN threads. DD did her own research and came to her own conclusions about what sort of course might suit her best. It was an individual decision. I am sure OPs DD is equally capable of working out what sort of course will suit her.

My understanding is that medicine is different from law, in that there is a wider range of careers, and different skills are required. Different courses have different emphases. I doubt many people would select a GP or specialist simply because they had been to Oxford. Nor that University fundamentally changes the individual. An 18 year old with the talent, empathy, interest and work ethic should become a good practitioner from anywhere that provides a decent training.

Yes but the loveliness, warmth and compassion of non Oxbridge trained doctors contrasted with the social awkwardness, competitiveness and general ne'er do wellness of Oxbridge trained doctors is a recurrent theme (especially in your own posts Needmoresleep!).

I haven't expressed any opinion about the OP's DD's application. She seems to have chosen to give Cambridge a swerve already anyhow.

Actually I'm going to have to confess to being an honourable exception to your assumed rule: I most definitely opted quite consciously for my GP because of his Cambridge training. Or rather, because he's incredibly switched on and - odd this, for a Cambridge doctor - remarkably sensible, humourous, great at communicating etc etc. He stayed at Cambridge for his clinical years too, so how he escaped the Curse of Cambridge goodness alone knows. I find it reassuring to have a bright doctor who has no problem with anything thrown at him. I've been underwhelmed elsewhere I have to say, having been through many practices across the UK (army life). He's the best GP I've encountered, though two others were/ are also stand out good despite the very serious disadvantage of having trained at Cambridge/ London and Cambridge/ Oxford.

Having solid scientific knowledge helps clinical medicine, most senior consultants would have had a traditional method of doing sciences in their first three years with minimal patient contact and this has not hindered them at all!
As most of the views are anecdotal we have to take it with pinch of salt. I am not sure why there is this widespread opinion that Oxbridge medics lack social skills this is not the case from my experience at all. I know of 4 children ( well now adults ) who have gone to oxbridge in the last few years - all smart, academically capable, kind and caring.
All medical degrees ensure that you have decent well trained safe doctors - the curriculum, assessment and exams ensures this! To a certain extent social skills ie how to break bad news, show empathy are taught in the med school. Some people are naturally better at it than others and most certainly can be found in all walks of life and in all medical universities.
My Dd has just decided on doing medicine and haven't given much thought to where she would be applying. If she wants to apply for Oxbridge I would encourage her. At the same time, I would encourage the medics to move around different part of the country or to different country in their training. Your clinical skills improve as you progress through the training- so what if the FP1 is not good clinically he or she is in their first job, and it is the consultants and their seniors responsibility to teach them. Training as a doctor is like doing an apprenticeship- better to have as much knowledge as possible, be a keen learner and have lot of practice during the training period.

DD has been surprised at how many on her course want to be GPs, and whose main focus is to gain the knowledge that will enable them to be effective. This is in sharp contrast to her peers at her academic London school, almost all of whom went to Oxbridge/London and with great ambitions

For people who are so focused on getting their kids into medical schools, there are some really bizarre ideas about the career of medicine on this thread. Doctors are almost all highly driven, hardworking & ambitious. Most doctors will become GPs. They don't stop being highly driven and ambitious. Sure, there are some consultants who look down on GPs, but equally, physicians and anaesthetists look down on surgeons, surgeons look down on physicians, general surgeons look down orthopods (thick), orthopods look down on general surgeons (boring), everyone looks down on emergency physicians, and we all hate radiologists (stroppy). It's not a hierarchy, it's a cluster fuck

I'm being slightly tongue in cheek to make a serious point. Get it out of your heads that it's 'better' or 'more ambitious' to be a surgeon than a GP. I know many, many unhappy doctors. One of the reasons that many are unhappy is that they went into medicine or into a particular speciality due to family pressure, and/or misplaced ideas about the status of particular specialities. Doctors now have to choose their speciality very early in their careers. It is more important than ever that they choose with an open mind, thinking carefully about what speciality suits them, not basing their choice on daft ideas about which is more prestigious. That way madness, sadness and burnout lie.

My D says that while she’s always wanted to be a surgeon, she’s looking forward to rotations in different clinical areas and might find somewhere that she feels she fits better. I’m sure many others feel
the same way

Most doctors will become GPs.
Source for that statement? This 2017 report says 17-34% will become GPs. That's not a majority. The high water mark is 25%, evidently.

it's widely acknowledged on MN threads that Oxbridge medics are arrogant tits lacking in basic communication skills as well as empathy

Does MN matter irl (that is, if mumsnetters in majority think that, at all)? Most sane people who support widening participation at Oxford and Cambridge (and other unis), resulting in generous bursaries for those eligible, (despite their DC choosing to go elsewhere) are not concerned by what these (usually) young people with much promise may have inherited for parents or cultural attitudes. It is an opportunity for the young person to make their own choices, not driven solely by the experiences of their parents. The horse will drink when it finds the water suitable. Happily, in medicine, that is generally any (old or new) med school that floats your boat.

Obviously MN doesn't matter in real life. However, when logged onto MN one tends to respond to MN opinions.

Also, the evident inadequacy of the Oxford and Cambridge medical schools has nothing to do with the access programme. It's possible to disagree with the view that Oxbridge medics are somehow less fit to be doctors while at the same time strongly supporting access in general. I can't quite see how a sane person would not see that these are entirely separate matters.

What does this sentence mean maryso?: Most sane people who support widening participation at Oxford and Cambridge (and other unis), resulting in generous bursaries for those eligible, (despite their DC choosing to go elsewhere) are not concerned by what these (usually) young people with much promise may have inherited for parents or cultural attitudes. I can't see what the bit about 'their DC choosing to go elsewhere' means. Perhaps it's a very convoluted reference to your own DC? .

goodbyestranger is it so inconceivable that anyone could act without being obsessed with their DC? I know quite a few supporters of various unis who do so despite their DCs choosing to go elsewhere. There is a world beyond Oxford and Cambridge for good courses, and some would say better courses, not just medicine.

I only hope other forum users are not so obsessed about everything being so desperately personal. Do most MN users think so badly of Oxford and Cambridge? If they so, that's perfectly fine, isn't it? Not so sacred or otherwise special they can't cope with that, imho.

evident inadequacy of the Oxford and Cambridge medical schools

completely overlooked this, since the GMC decides who can award UK medical degrees, O and C are no more/less in/adequate than any other. Surely any sane person knows this?

maryso that was my precise point - why bring in the personal point about your own DC? What relevance is it that they chose not to apply? I really don't get it. But then I don't suffer angst easily :)

As for the inadequacy of Oxbridge medical school, surely any sane person would see that that was a light hearted comment, written in the context of the slew of comments about the paucity of talent in Oxbridge medics?