Medical School Pondering

[kaykay72]

Hi all,

I’ve been reading a bit of the epically long medical school application thread, you all seem so knowledgable about the unis and the process, that I wondered if you could give me some thoughts on our situation please?

D has wanted to be a surgeon for as long as I can remember, used to aspire to go to Cambridge but wavers in that now. Strong academic and sporting record. Developed an illness in the run up to her GCSEs, sat exams (pre diagnosis but on diagnosis was told illness had been present around 6 months before exams, came out with 6A, 3A, 2B. Ended up missing year 12 due to treatment and extended hospital admission, but has fought like a warrior and restarted year 12 with next cohort. School have already said that she’ll have a medical attachment to her UCAS form to explain gap and the opinion that she underperformed at gcse due to illness. First half of year 12 going well, medical situation all good. Has part time job, is currently predicted A, A*, A - and school don’t give predicted grade for further maths at this point. Is back at her sport, working her way back up (she was a national level competitor), completing a diploma in this which carries UCAS points (equivalent to a B grade A level) and has just passed a coaching qualification as she coaches a bit at her club. Trying to fit in some WE/voluntary work but difficult to access and fit in with study/work/training. Has booked (and self funded) an overseas medical work shadowing trip later in the year.

She’s starting to shortlist unis for 2019 - she’s looking for places that do dissection rather than prosection, would prefer a campus uni (has a non medic family member at Nottingham, where they also cater well for her sport) and does not like the idea of too high a proportion of PBL

I’ve got little idea of how the various scoring systems work or which unis might suit or consider her - or whether Cambridge is still a reasonable goal for her (although she’s not sure their course is what she’s looking for). Can anyone offer any advice or opinions?

Thank you 😊

Probablynapping

Bet you'll make a great doctor. Empathy and caring - I've decided the admissions process is devised to see if you all can cope with the uncertainty and waiting in the NHS😂. Now I really am off as have Prossecco to drink for Mother's Day 🥂

mumsneedwine

Thank you, that means a lot - I really really hope so!

It's definitely an effective initiation test, if you can get through that you can get through anything. Best of luck to your DD - I promise it gets easier! Enjoy the prosecco

I don't know any other course where you have to... (long list of challenges)

60% of the candidates I interview give the impression that they are entirely up for that set of challenges. Seems like their collective Motto is "Bring it On". 25% seem nervous but just as determined. There's a personality type you tend to see.

I like MMI b/c it's like real medicine; new person to meet every 5 minutes that you REALLY have to try to please or at least be coherent speaking to. Later, at end of day you can go home & be a grumpy arse who likes nobody, though, if that's your true self, fine as long as you can be personable when it matters. DD's hero is JD who made Dr. Cox his hero.

Waiting until March to finalise offers is good... it means that someone who was too ill for their interview in December & then couldn't travel due to snow in February, could still get an offer if they have a great interview in March.

Series of hurdles was right analogy, from what I understand about our admissions process.

mumsneedwineI didn't say it was easier, I simply said the stakes are as high for all students set on any course of study at whatever level of grades. Maternal self-indulgence - or perhaps boasting in some cases - doesn't make a relatively straightforward process uniquely hard.

probablynapping I'm not convinced that your experience speaks for the majority of medical students. I don't think that my DS and his peers can be the only ones not totally freaked by the application process. Grades, moderate doses of work experience, BMAT and/ or UKCAT, level headed approach to interviews, more grades, bingo.

ps: not sure if kaykay72 is still around, but an MSF surgeon is doing a live webcast tomorrow, on MSF facebook. I'd tune in if I wanted to be a surgeon.

A couple of things to keep in mind. Many med schools will want you to do a minimum of 3 A2s in year 13, so if you take A level maths in year 12 and don’t carry on and do FM in year 13 you will not meet requirements by just doing Chemistry and Biology.
If you are thinking of applying to Barts and the London having 4 A levels may well help you to get an interview as they select interviewees on 50% UCAS points/50% UKCAT.

goodbyestranger

I didn't claim it was representative of the majority of medical students - but it was my experience, and many of my peers experienced something similar. I wasn't confident and that showed in my interviews - I did my best to follow your beautifully simple algorithm, but unfortunately it isn't always so easy to take a 'level headed approach' to something that is so desperately important. However, I think my experience made me a much better student doctor. I am so grateful for my place at med school every single day, and I've maintained a decent amount of humility (which can't be said for all doctors). I'm sure your DS and his friends are lovely, but IME the ones who breezed into medical school are the ones who give us our 'god complex' reputation. And the ones no-one wants to sit with in lectures.

probablynapping no that's completely not an accurate description of my very popular, extremely able but not in the least arrogant DS. With the greatest respect, that's a very silly generalization.

I don't see any good reason for saying that the applicants who get rejected first time around are necessarily going to make better doctors by virtue of that experience. Equally, it's entirely possible that those who get offers without undue stress get them because the admissions
people think that they possess the attributes to....make good doctors.

And really I go back to the initial point that actually it's no more 'desperately important' that a medical student gets a place than a history or classics or physics students gets theirs and not an inordinate amount harder to achieve either.

In my nearly 30 years working clinically for the nhs, including interviewing drs for a number of posts, have I given a flying fig where they obtained their medical degree except if it was overseas and then I've checked it out further through curiosity rather than status. Your daughter needs to choose places that she meets the criteria for, can accommodate her sport, and a place she is happy to live in for 5 years minimum. He sounds like an amazing and lucky young lady to have overcome her health issues so quickly and be 'back on it' on schedule.

It can be straight forward if you have a good crop of A*s at GCSE, strong A level predictions including chemistry and biology, high UKCAT and BMAT scores, with no dip in any section, are reasonably knowledgeable about medicine and what being a doctor entails and are generally confident at interview. Essentially you have jumped the hurdles and should gain the prize. Even so it is more than possible to apply in October and not hear till March (or later).

The strategy comes in if you are missing something, so need to look into the different weighting different med schools give to different criteria. DD was ill the summer before Yr13, so did not take BMAT, had a lacklustre UKCAT, so needed to focus on schools which did not rely heavily on aptitude tests. Someone this year discovered her DD was ruled out of several schools because of a surprise 4 in SJ. And so on.

And some will fail to shine at interview, through nerves or inexperience.

MN is supposed to be supportive. Probably about 20 of DDs peers applied for medicine. DD was possibly one of only 4 who was still waiting for an offer in March. I doubt any of the four saw themselves as weaker applicants. It just happened. Neither was it maternal self-indulgence, nor boasting. Simply grim. It takes a certain toughness to focus on exams whilst facing rejection.

Stranger's DS was perhaps lucky that he was accepted by a med school, well known for making some of the earliest offers, and may not realise how tough it is to spend the spring term, with mocks and coursework deadlines, in a state of uncertainty. Or perhaps her DS and his friends are just super resilient or ticked all the required boxes. That should not prevent those who are finding the process complicated seeking advice, experience or information. Nor prevent them looking for mutual support from other mums who are supporting their DC through the process.

goodbyestranger

I did say I'm sure your DS is lovely.

People who find the applications process tricky can also possess the attributes to make good doctors. I had a bad interview but I'm now three years into the course and doing really well. The 'undue stress' confirmed that I have the resilience to withstand the pressures that I will inevitably face as a doctor.

Why do you think that the med school applications process is not inordinately more difficult than other courses? Genuinely curious. What other course has similar requirements? Or ratios of applicants:places?

needsmoresleep

Beautifully articulated.

Plenty of people find some aspect of the admissions process difficult - because it IS. Stranger's DS is incredibly lucky to have found it so easy but I don't think some of the comments have been helpful, considering this is a thread about struggling with the process. To question why others think getting into med school is difficult is completely unfair, and to say that it's no more difficult than other courses is, quite simply, delusional.

Correction: needmoresleep
Clearly I need a bit more sleep😴

Needmoresleep it's not about mutual support or lack of it or indeed about my own DS. I've known dozens of medical school applicants over the years. Mutual support is fine of course but MN medical threads have become stridently insistent that applications to medical school are supremely difficult and that the outcomes for these DC matter vastly more than the outcomes for other DC (who are rather belittled on the threads). It seems much more supportive - and realistic - to say that actually no, it's pretty straightforward with no magic involved. Art course students don't get this amount of air time devoted to how incredibly hard their lot is.

probablynapping you couldn't possibly have a clue as to whether or not DS1 is lovely, so I confirmed that he is. Because you were trying to imply that people like him tend to be arrogant tits.

Also my comments were aimed at the maternal ratcheting up of stress about the whole thing, prompted by a comment by MedSchoolRat. Another poster has brought up the fact that my own DS had early offers, which it's true he did. But my observations of the process are based on many tens of applicants over the years, certainly not just on a single student.

goodbyestranger

That hasn't really answered my question, or offered any more clarity surrounding your claims but never mind.

Best of luck to your DS!

I disagree.

DS had a tough time apply for economics, an Oxbridge rejection and three Universities keeping him waiting till March. And yes, it was stressful. But this was very unusual. Even then he was only expected to get the grades and demonstrate interest in his subject. No aptitude tests, no shadowing, no evidence of being a caring individual (not required for economics), and only one interview.

I accept that there are other subjects which are difficult, and am very pleased DD did not want to go down the drama/musical theatre route. However applying for medicine is not simple. There are a lot more applicants than places. Medical school selection criteria are a hurdle race, and you can substantially increase your chances of a place by doing some research and working out where your profile is fits best.

More research will then enable you to decide what style of teaching appeals. DD was on a ward in her first week and is expected to do weekly shifts as an HCA. Some medical school students will barely see a patient in their first three years.

A surprisingly large industry has grown up around applying to medical school. Books and courses on acing UKCAT or BMAT. Residential courses on how to apply. Consultants to write your Personal Statement. Interview coaching. I'm not sure how much of this would be useful. However it suggests there is a role for mums to help guide DC's research and to provide emotional support and understanding. Almost all applicants will be bright, successful students. For many medical school rejection will be their first experience of failure.

probablynapping the ratio of applications to places doesn't really help clarify anything very much so I didn't get into it and it seems to me that plenty of other courses are equally hard in terms of entry requirements and aptitude tests and auditions and portfolios so what more can I say?

Thanks for the good luck though. He's just finished his final sixth year exams and is on a placement/ holiday in New Zealand and heard a couple of days ago that he's got his first choice for F1, so so far so good. Good luck to you too!

Mothers don't need to be unduly involved in the application process to provide emotional support and understanding.

Perhaps. I got involved because DD was up against the UCAS deadline whilst trying to recover from serious illness. Others on MN have because their DCs schools may only send one student a decade to medical school and provide little support or guidance. Or are trying to work out what to do after a duff UKCAT score, poor A level choices, or patchy GCSEs. And so on.

FWIW, I am very grateful to posters like Alreadytaken, Peternas and others for sharing their knowledge and experience. And yes I put together a spreadsheet, but DD made the choices, went to the interviews and got the grades.

To add: The big difference between medicine/dentistry/vet science and subjects like economics or classics is that with the latter is that as long as you have the grades, you will always find a place on a less selective course. This is emphatically not so with medicine. There are fewer places, so even if you have the grades (and the rest) you may find yourself not being able to study the subject.

There's a personality type you tend to see
And I have been wondering whether indeed, someone's fate at interview is determined within the first couple of minutes of each station on this basis. From DD's experience and that of her friends, I got the feeling that indeed, there was a 'type' that seemed to do better than others at interviews and that was the type that showed confidence without arrogance, who showed to have point of views and prepare to defend them without being bullyish, who were friendly, smiley, approachable, but able to speak in a professional manner, and talk about their experience showing resilience.

I also agree that all with find an aspect of the process more difficult than others. For DD, the interview stage was the easiest because indeed, her natural personality suit what interviewers seem to be looking for. She actually enjoyed each of them. Her biggest challenge was the UKCAT/BMAT because although she loves learning, she hates practicing. It really pushed her boundaries to discipline herself to put enough hours in to do well.

Not many candidates will excel at each aspect of the process, but recognising one's weakness from the start so they can work on it rather than reflecting afterwards would be my advice, although there is nothing wrong at all with learning as a result of the process and using it for the following year.

why thank you, needmoresleep. I only drop by here infrequently and it's always nice to be remembered.

Of course applying for medicine is more stressful than, say, history because if you apply for a history course and you have good grades you'll get an offer somewhere, you cant say that with medicine. Very few students for other subjects face multiple tests and interviews. Most parents who have the time would want to support their child with research, if you dont have the time and are extremely competitive you make a virtue of not doing so.

Oxbridge has advantages and disadvantages. It's childish to pretend otherwise. Terms are short and pressure high, more so at some Cambridge colleges than others. There is very limited clinical contact in the early years and while that suits some students others need the clinical contact. Instead of pretending that isnt an issue my child recognised it and found a way to deal with it. Competition is intense and those who have been at the top of their school may not be at the top of their medical school. You are in a very protected and privileged little bubble.

As far as advantages - terms are short and you have longer vacations in the non clinical years. It's cheaper with low accommodation costs, grants for some, earnings in holidays can offset not being allowed to earn in short terms. (And yes I do know some do, the universities frown on it). It's easier at Cambridge, cant speak for Oxford, to make a wider range of friends in non-clinical years and those friends are more likely to be in positions of influence in later life. There is probably more world leading research around, undergrads dont necessarily benefit from that. For some students the competitive atmosphere encourages harder work.

Cambridge students are required to study in more depth than students at some other medical schools. That depth can seem entirely irrelevant to their later career, so this could be either advantage or disadvantage, time will tell. The teaching method can also suit some and not others, can be advantage or disadvantage.

Do I believe it's an advantage in a later medical career, probably not over someone with similar grades who goes to a different medical school. Success in exams does tend to be related to how well you have performed in past exams. Grade variation in those applying to med schools probably accounts for the differences in success rates between med schools in later exams.

As pointed out before the people interviewing you later in your career are quite likely to have been at another medical school. Who you are, whether you take the opportunities available at your medical school and how you perform after medical school is what matters. The intensely competitive personality type isnt necessarily an advantage for doctors, although surgeons probably do tend to be more competitive and some types of surgery more than others. Some people are detested by all who have the misfortune to work with them.

For anyone considering Cambridge there is the shadowing scheme www.applytocambridge.com/shadowing/apply/

swingofthings yes, although hindsight is a wonderful thing.

And no Needmoresleep, not 'perhaps'. Mothers can undoubtedly give at least as much emotional support and understanding even if they stay on the sidelines. Indeed too much investment in the process can quite easily tip over into being counter-productive.

Also, I suspect you may be more grateful for those posters' advice than for mine (each with one DC going through the process in consecutive years, mine in the middle) because their own views align much more closely with your own on how to approach the process (particularly alreadytaken's) and how incredibly special these DC are when compared to all of their peers (peteneras). It's natural that a contrary view is disparaged.