Medical School Pondering

[kaykay72]

Hi all,

I’ve been reading a bit of the epically long medical school application thread, you all seem so knowledgable about the unis and the process, that I wondered if you could give me some thoughts on our situation please?

D has wanted to be a surgeon for as long as I can remember, used to aspire to go to Cambridge but wavers in that now. Strong academic and sporting record. Developed an illness in the run up to her GCSEs, sat exams (pre diagnosis but on diagnosis was told illness had been present around 6 months before exams, came out with 6A, 3A, 2B. Ended up missing year 12 due to treatment and extended hospital admission, but has fought like a warrior and restarted year 12 with next cohort. School have already said that she’ll have a medical attachment to her UCAS form to explain gap and the opinion that she underperformed at gcse due to illness. First half of year 12 going well, medical situation all good. Has part time job, is currently predicted A, A*, A - and school don’t give predicted grade for further maths at this point. Is back at her sport, working her way back up (she was a national level competitor), completing a diploma in this which carries UCAS points (equivalent to a B grade A level) and has just passed a coaching qualification as she coaches a bit at her club. Trying to fit in some WE/voluntary work but difficult to access and fit in with study/work/training. Has booked (and self funded) an overseas medical work shadowing trip later in the year.

She’s starting to shortlist unis for 2019 - she’s looking for places that do dissection rather than prosection, would prefer a campus uni (has a non medic family member at Nottingham, where they also cater well for her sport) and does not like the idea of too high a proportion of PBL

I’ve got little idea of how the various scoring systems work or which unis might suit or consider her - or whether Cambridge is still a reasonable goal for her (although she’s not sure their course is what she’s looking for). Can anyone offer any advice or opinions?

Thank you 😊

Compared to 20 or 30 yrs ago, I dunno, but getting in is becoming slightly less competitive compared to 5-10 yrs ago, is what we're told by my MedSchool leadership.

I think graduation prospects have a lot to do with it. There's a guarantee of a job if you survive the course, practically anywhere in the world.
Jobs in arts/law/media have similarly had conditions eroded with far less job security and also have a long hours culture.

Swingofthings- that's exactly what I am made to believe by the school as well.

Like many who took both, DD only needs a few marks to get an A in her final math exams, taking a lot of the stress away and mean she can concentrate more on Chemistry and Biology.

This is exactly why some medical schools don't like students doing it. Birmingham, for instance, insists that a certain number of maths A-level units must be taken in year 13.

From their web pages:

If an A Level is completed in Year 12 at grade A or above (or more than 50% of the modules have been examined), the offer for the remaining subjects studied in Year 13 will be AAA (plus grade A for the subject that was not fully completed in Year 12)

Mathematics: If you are studying a single Mathematics A Level and you wish this subject to be included in an offer requirement you must follow a curriculum that involves the study of three modules in Year 13. Each of these modules must contribute to the final A Level Mathematics result and must be studied and examined for the first time in this year. The following applies to students who also study Further Mathematics:
We will consider a module combination that leads to an A Level in Mathematics and an AS Level in Further Mathematics after two years of study (Years 12 and 13).
Three modules must be studied in Year 13. The module results may contribute to either the Mathematics A Level or the Further Mathematics AS Level.
The Mathematics component of an offer will be based on achieving A/A* in A Level Mathematics and A in AS Level Further Mathematics.

MedSchoolRat

Compared to 20 or 30 yrs ago, I dunno, but getting in is becoming slightly less competitive compared to 5-10 yrs ago, is what we're told by my MedSchool leadership.

It's been fluctuating a bit recently. You have to bear in mind that the number of 18-year-olds has been declining for several years, and will reach the lowest level for nearly 30 years in 2020: just when the 1,500 extra places are available and there are probably several new medical schools competing for students. Things like the junior doctors' strike and the GP crisis (which very few seem aware of) seem to have had only a small impact on numbers of applications.

If I recall correctly, UCAS said that applications for medicine were up by 1,200 this year.
The extra places won't all come on stream until 2020. Some universities offered a handful of places this year. So it's still a fiercely competitive field.

Sorry, IIRC!

This is exactly why some medical schools don't like students doing it. Birmingham, for instance, insists that a certain number of maths A-level units must be taken in year 13.
Are there any other schools than Birmigham? Because all the ones DD considered were fine with dropping FM in Y13. Birmingham wasn't an option for her for other reasons.

Indeed, more applications in England this year (but less in Wales and Ireland if I recall correctly).

So, far example of the university asks for AAA and if a student gets A in further maths, Biology and chemistry - then it should be ok isn't it ?

There should be no problem at all. Normally they are quite clear about what they want. So some might say, two lab subjects, others will say biology and chemistry. Several say they will not count BOTH Maths and FM.

Spreadsheets are the way to go! First rule out places and courses that don't appeal, then look at websites for entry requirements and the skills they are seeking, crossing out those looking for GCSE grades or A level predictions you don't have. Make sure you have covered and evidenced those within the PS. The final selection when you have you UKCAT, and perhaps BMAT, scores. DD was left with three, with a risky Nottingham/Swansea. No interview at Nottingham as she was one A* short at GCSE - pity she can't draw - but fine as you only need one place. Strong applicants she knew did not get a place first time round, probably because they were not strategic enough.

finnto
The extra places won't all come on stream until 2020. Some universities offered a handful of places this year. So it's still a fiercely competitive field.

There are 500 extra places for 2018 entry (more than a handful). HEFCE/Health Education England were very clear that the extra 1,000 places to be allocated this month should be available for 2019 entry unless there are very strong arguments for delaying them to 2020.

Yes but there were many more applicants this year. Up 18%. So more competitive than ever even with the 500 extra places.

The mums on here giving you information about the application process have all gone through it this year (waves at Medicine thread fellow posters). We want to help as we know how hard it is. Some people get totally rejected from all choices, not because they are not a good applicant but because they have not checked the selection criteria against themselves.

ProfessorLayton1
So, far example of the university asks for AAA and if a student gets A in further maths, Biology and chemistry - then it should be ok isn't it ?

For most places, yes. UCL used to have a reputation for being very awkward about any A-levels started/finished early or taken in just 1 year. I think they might have toned this down recently, but I wouldn't swear to it. Some places will say three A-levels have to be achieved at the required grades in a single sitting, which would make your example fine. Others say three A-levels have to be completed within 2 years. In the latter case, if a student had started A-level maths in year 11 and completed it in year 12 it wouldn't be taken into account along with two others taken over years 12 & 13: that students would have to do something like further maths within the year 12-13 period.

It's a shame the approach isn't consistent, as the point of the rules is to stop schools gaming the system by having students only doing two subjects in year 13.

Skiltan: I'll check my source of info over the 2020 add-ons.

I'll stand by my assertion that it's more competitive than it has been in recent years.

The 500 extra places are spread around different medical schools, so just a relatively small number per university.

If you deduct the 500 from the 1,200 extra or so applying, you are still left with an increase of 700 applicants.

It's a tough process regardless and often difficult to call.
I've known of the children of consultants, who've had rejections with brilliant academic stats and shadowing.

But by the same token, I had admissions people at sought after schools telling me that my DS's GCSEs were more than adequate and superior to those of some accepted candidates already in their first year.
There are quite a few elements to juggle. But I would say that impeccable predicted A levels and a good UKCAT/BMAT are the deciding factors.
There seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence on here to suggest that candidates with firmed offers were shown some leniency if they subsequently dropped grades at results time.

I won't be as invested in this whole process as many of you sound. It just won't happen.

I am thinking that DD needs to get some WE before submitting UCAS application. I need, she needs, to know that she really wants this career, as much as any 17yo can know anything.

I simply stood on the sidelines MedSchoolRat. DS did all the online research needed into where to apply and explained BMAT etc to me when he was registering for entry. I think MN must give an incredibly distorted view of the involvement of most parents of med school applicants. Not saying it's wrong of course but it does seem supremely tense. I'd have thought there was a good chance of that percolating down to the DC in question.

mumsneedwine I'm very unconvinced that it is that hard in reality, for a suitable applicant. I agree that anyone waiting until March for an offer has a tougher time than those with Christmas offers, but Art course are late too and some courses at certain universities (say History at Durham) are also generally late (Feb sort of time for most people). I think there's quite a bit of exaggeration going on here. DS's application for medicine felt no harder to me/ him than my other DCs' for other subjects.

Art courses

Well done to your DS. I don't know any other course where you have to undertake at least one entrance exam, be interviewed 8 times in one session (for each application), then wait 3 months for a reply. And compete against 10-12 other people for each place. I think it's a very hard process when all your friends have loads of offers before Xmas (many this year unconditional) and you don't even know if you've got an interview.

Oh and my research was zero. DD did it all. But you get a lot of time to talk on way to interviews around the country - which as they all required an over night stay one of us went with her as she was 17. DD sorted all her work experience and we know no one in medicine. And she (& her college) sorted her PS. I've not even read it. Good luck to all of you who are applying this year. I hope you find it nice and easy. Those of us commenting did so to help - our kids have offers so no axe to grind.

I'm at medical school at the moment (3rd year - only on MN because I love gossip!) and IME it is so bloody hard. I'm also from a non medical family and getting work experience was a pain in the bum. To be honest, the applications/interview process was a shock and it really took it out of me. Having said that, if your daughter is willing to put the work in, she will manage it, and by the sounds of things she is VERY driven so well done her. The application is genuinely the hardest part, it's plain sailing after that!

I'm at Leeds and we did full body dissection in first and second year, with the option to intercalate in anatomy. I can't praise the uni enough (I know I'm biased), it was my favourite from the start. I also had my heart set on Cambridge from an early age but during the application process I began to realise it probably wasn't for me. It felt so hostile, and medicine is hard enough without that added pressure. Leeds felt so familiar from the minute I stepped off the train for my interview, and they were so helpful every step of the way.

If there's anything I can do to help with her applications please let me know, I can answer any questions about my experience of interviews. Or if she wants to know more about Leeds med school I could rave about it for days! Best of luck to her with everything, it's tough but so worth it

Ok well there's a bit of hyperbole in there already mumsneedwine, if by eight interviews you actually mean multiple mini interviews which are incredibly short!

We aren't medics either - or rather all the medics in our family are long since dead - but at the very least no help for advice or work placements.

Apart from the wait your DD has had - admittedly long (my own DC was luckier) - what exactly has been so much harder than it has been for other applicants with their heart set on other subjects?

Bye. Tried to help. If you think it's an easy process then I'm very happy for you. I'm off to have a glass of wine for Mother's Day with my 18 year old DD who managed to get 4 interviews and has yet to be rejected from anywhere.

Regarding surgery, I was talking recently to someone who works for RCS. They reckoned that most medical schools focus on churning out GPs and often students graduate with insufficient skills to become surgeons. So your dd may want to look at medical schools where she could intercalate & get an additional qualification e.g. In anatomy.

What nonsense. The amount of time med students spend in general practice has actually fallen over the last decade on average. You can intercalate at any medical school - either at the med school itself or a linked university (e.g. UCH/UCL). And no one leaves med school with the skills to become a surgeon: you develop those in your foundation years and basic training.

And remember that your DD may be sure she wants to be a surgeon now, OP, but lots of people change their minds during med school and foundation years. So you want a med school that gives her a well-rounded education, and where she will thrive. Beyond that, it really doesn't matter - as PPs have said, it is far less important in medicine where you went to university than in most other professions.

mumsneedwine

Fully agree with everything you've said. I went through the admissions process a couple of years ago and it's brutal. There's no point spreading yourself too thin with things like FM - much better to concentrate on getting three good A-levels, because dropping a grade could be the difference between getting a place at med school and missing out.

I had good predicted grades, spent months on my PS, had good work experience/a job in a GP and did well in both the UKCAT and BMAT. Got interviews at 3/4 med schools (including Cambridge) and bent over backwards to try to get an offer. Still, 4 rejections. For many people, it's the first experience they have of academic rejection and it's heartbreaking. But, I had to carry on if I was to be able to apply next year so worked my arse off to get 3 A*s in year 13 and ended up with an offer from Leeds on results day. It's a long, arduous, emotional process and it definitely knocked my confidence and affects me to this day. So for those implying it's not difficult - you're entitled to your (wrong) opinion, but, for many people, it's the hardest thing they'll ever do.