Medical School Pondering

[kaykay72]

Hi all,

I’ve been reading a bit of the epically long medical school application thread, you all seem so knowledgable about the unis and the process, that I wondered if you could give me some thoughts on our situation please?

D has wanted to be a surgeon for as long as I can remember, used to aspire to go to Cambridge but wavers in that now. Strong academic and sporting record. Developed an illness in the run up to her GCSEs, sat exams (pre diagnosis but on diagnosis was told illness had been present around 6 months before exams, came out with 6A, 3A, 2B. Ended up missing year 12 due to treatment and extended hospital admission, but has fought like a warrior and restarted year 12 with next cohort. School have already said that she’ll have a medical attachment to her UCAS form to explain gap and the opinion that she underperformed at gcse due to illness. First half of year 12 going well, medical situation all good. Has part time job, is currently predicted A, A*, A - and school don’t give predicted grade for further maths at this point. Is back at her sport, working her way back up (she was a national level competitor), completing a diploma in this which carries UCAS points (equivalent to a B grade A level) and has just passed a coaching qualification as she coaches a bit at her club. Trying to fit in some WE/voluntary work but difficult to access and fit in with study/work/training. Has booked (and self funded) an overseas medical work shadowing trip later in the year.

She’s starting to shortlist unis for 2019 - she’s looking for places that do dissection rather than prosection, would prefer a campus uni (has a non medic family member at Nottingham, where they also cater well for her sport) and does not like the idea of too high a proportion of PBL

I’ve got little idea of how the various scoring systems work or which unis might suit or consider her - or whether Cambridge is still a reasonable goal for her (although she’s not sure their course is what she’s looking for). Can anyone offer any advice or opinions?

Thank you 😊

My Dd is going to apply for medicine this year but haven't got much work experience at all. She has always maintained that she does not want to do medicine. She is going to volunteer in a care home - not started that yet!
Some care homes don't allow unless the candidate is 18 so you need to ring around to find one. Also, ask in the local community hospitals , rehab places and hospice. They all count as WE.
Ask your GP even if she manages to get a day or two shadowing. Oh.. don't forget physiotherapy or pharmacy

Although there are some differences among medical schools in what they're looking for in "work experience" (I hate that phrase), there are more similarities. The recommendation I generally give to sixth-formers is not to list everything they've done and then try to tack on something about why it's important: you will never give enough detail if you try to do this. It's better to start with a list of what criteria you're going to be assessed on, making sure these match your strengths, and then picking the examples that provide the best evidence that you meet them. If you're lucky, the same experience might provide evidence of motivation/commitment, your caring nature, your ability to work with others, your ability to cope with responsibility and your ability to communicate effectively. More commonly you'll need to pick two or three experiences to provide evidence of all of these.

There are some medical schools that expect to see evidence of time spent in medical settings. Others recognize that this is very difficult for younger students and those without family connections, so their emphasis is much more on evidence of commitment to caring for, supporting or helping people. So things like helping younger children in school with their reading or maths, or coaching younger children in sports, or working with vulnerable/isolated people in any kind of community setting are likely to be useful experiences to reflect on.

My own particular pet hate is box-ticking: applicants who have clearly only done things because someone has told them they have to do them to get into medical school, and have given them up as soon as they felt they could get away with it. I want to see prospective students who do caring/supportive work because they actually want to help people. If they don't want to care for people, why are they applying to be doctors?

Liverpool and Nottingham were both very clear that having proper work was more valuable than time in a hospital. Some experience to understand a doctors role is important (GPs, some hospitals run specific schemes - google is your friend) but they value what you have learned from it not how much you have done.
I can not recommend highly enough going to open days and listening to the medicine talks. Hear the actual facts from the admissions people, not stuff you read on the Internet. Lots us out of date and courses are constantly changing too. Decide if you want CBL, PBL, integrated, early patient contact and select the 4 courses you like and your profile fits. No point applying to Cardiff with 4A s as you will be rejected. No point applying to Newcastle with a rubbish UKCAT (but I'd have lots of A*s then do apply to Cardiff !).
Apply strategically to get the interviews.

Sorry for typos. Texting while cooking dinner

Did you find out how the universities view maths A level if they do it Year 12

Not directly... the school advises & I get the same impression from threads here, that the yr12 A-level won't count for her MED school application. That's ok. We both see benefits, anyway.

I feel like I could comment a fair bit about how work experience is used in our admissions process, but am refraining because could be too outing. I'll just say that some of the best interview answers I've heard came from people talking about their experience working in retail. We know the applicants are mostly 17 & getting medical-setting WE is difficult.

Medschoolrat- what other subjects does your Dd do?
My Dd is also doing FM and the medical university entry requirements are not very clear.

DD is just finishing yr11 now. A-levels will be chemistry, biology, math (yr12) & FM (yr13).

If you want to do medicine why do FM ? No one cares. They want a good UKCAT/BMAT - both vile things that require practice. Good work experience and volunteering, And year 13 is taken up by open days and interviews and stress. It's tough so don't make it harder . Please read the medicine thread - some people have 5 rejections and it's v v!hard.

My Dd is also doing the same four subjects for A levels.
She enjoys maths and wants to continue it but there is time to drop if she struggles though.

Mine did 4 until March of year 12 when she decided physics was pointless. Please please convince them to only do what is needed in Year 12 as by year 13 it all gets v v full on. If you want to do medicine then do what is needed for that - it is a long hurdle race that is all consuming and concentrating on 3 A levels becomes hard.

Her school does Maths in year 12 and further maths in year 13 for children doing further maths. The school finishes maths teaching but they don't complete the exams till next year. The advantage for her would be she can drop FM anytime and still have maths, Biology and chemistry for A level.
I would be watching closely to assess the situation.

physics was pointless not to some consultant specialities, in fact it is a rather critical part of speciality training and exams for radiology and oncologists doing radiotherapy.
That is what is so good in medicine, it encompasses such a range of interests and strengths.

I can see your point mumsneedwine but just hate it how narrow the education becomes at such an early age... too much specialisation too soon!

I give up (a 4th A level is a total waste of energy for medicine). To get into medicine you mostly need AAA, but to get an interview you need a good UKCAT/BMAT. And this requires time. Practice. And a lot of luck. Please read some of the medicine thread - real parents going through the admissions process THIS year - it has changed from even a few years ago. We want to help as we know what is coming for year 12s. It's tough.

FM - sure has its uses, research ? Epidemiology?

May be I am an idealist - you should learn things just for the sheer joy of it!!
She does a lot of things which is not useful for medicine at all but she just enjoys doing them!

Mumsneedwine- once again, I see your point

It is a fault in the education system and there is no sign of that being fixed any time soon!

Come September, we may decide on a common sense approach rather than being idealistic😃

Professor Layton you need to decide that before Sept as UKCAT needs taking before then. Hopefully you've registered already. It is horrible and needs a months practice to get a good result - and luck ! BMAT can be taken in the autumn but UKCAT mostly done in July/Aug. Then PS needs writing - most start in June of year 12 for medicine as submitted so soon in autumn term. And open days in June/July are vital to hear from the Unis what they want - lots rejected from
Notts this year with amazing results but not the right PS. ALL applicants for medicine are clever and fab - you need to play the game.

Sounds like we could be talking about same school, ProfLayton! We work in same industry too, iirc.

DD will be bored without the FM in yr13. Not like OP doing high commitment sport to fill their time (or much else, really).

Agree about UKCAT being vile. I floundered when I got involved with developing the situation-judgement tests. Compared to others, I had such a different perspective on best answer for many questions (am not a medic, though, never could have been). Like almost all the Med applicants, DD loves a challenge & will relish the exams, though.

My boss (proper medical doctor) made his reputation by doing clever math things with infectious data. Puts him in high demand. I see value in FM.

An EPQ would be more useful than FM. Not only is it helpful sometimes in admissions, more importantly it improves their research and report writing skills. Essential for Uni. If it's medical based it also gives them a real in depth knowledge to discuss at interviews - showing a passion for being a doctor and advanced in medicine. Get a part time job too, which eats into study time, but teaches so many skills - perseverance, time management, commitment, patience. I am sure this is why my DD got all 4 interviews - that and a UKCAT with SJ 1 (that counts too !). Bring clever and lovely isn't enough - all 20,000 applicants are !

I read these type of threads in amazement. When and why did application to med school become so complicated and tactical? (This is not a criticism of the posters BTW) Is it because it is hard to differentiate using GCSE grades now.

I just found a research article analysing the year I applied (1996) there were 45000 applications by 9500 applicants for just under 4500 places. A total of 10000 offers were made. They also broke down the results into no of offers per applicant 40%-no offers, 20% 1, 25% 2 offers, 10% 3 offers, 5% 4 offers and 2% all 5. How does that compare to today?

The good thing is that different medical schools look for different things. DD has very slow processing speeds, so finds timed tests like UKCAT (or 11+ or CAT) very difficult. Yet enjoys maths and science, is good at time management, and so did not struggle taking 5 A levels, being a school prefect and playing 2 sports at a good level. She also managed a fair amount of volunteering, shadowing etc. No surprise then that she has ended up at a school that weights PS' heavily. She has yet to decide buy I could see her thriving in a busy environment like A&E.

Mumsneedwine is right. You only need 3 A levels to get into medical school, and taking more does not give an advantage, except perhaps with BMAT. However I don't think DD regrets her choices. Maths has already proved useful in her first year. Physics helps leave the door open for an engineering intercalation. Her sport means a chance to engage in wider university life, and her time management experience is a real asset in the transition from school to university. (It also made results day easier as there it did not matter if she dropped a grade somewhere, and indeed it meant less pressure when she came down with a bug the day before a physics paper.)

I think GoodbyeStrangers earlier assertions were worrying. Oxbridge/UCL/Imperial are BMAT schools. Things may change now that BMAT exams are earlier but lots of very able applicants don't bother with BMAT. Often because they have good UKCAT scores so don't need to bother. Or come from schools who dont send many to medical school, so have less confidence in preparing for the test. It would be quite worrying if, as a result, they were destined for 'lesser' careers than their Oxbridge/London peers.

Twodogsandahooch - I just found a research article analysing the year I applied (1996) there were 45000 applications by 9500 applicants for just under 4500 places. A total of 10000 offers were made. They also broke down the results into no of offers per applicant 40%-no offers, 20% 1, 25% 2 offers, 10% 3 offers, 5% 4 offers and 2% all 5. How does that compare to today?

I don't have such a detailed breakdown, but in recent years we've been looking at around 75,000 applications from around 20,000 applicants for a bit over 6,000 places. You're only allowed to use 4 UCAS applications for medicine/dentistry/veterinary medicine, so the figures for numbers of offers are a bit misleading, as at least one offer will be for a non-medicine course.

Needmoresleep

It would be quite worrying if, as a result, they were destined for 'lesser' careers than their Oxbridge/London peers.

They aren't.

DD is another one who dropped FM in Y13. It was great to get used to a full schedule and then finding she had so much more study time without it. She got the discipline of being at school most of the day though, so use the time in the library to study. The benefit of taking FM in Y12 -which we didn't know at the time- is that fact that you can then pick your top results towards your Maths A levels. Like many who took both, DD only needs a few marks to get an A in her final math exams, taking a lot of the stress away and mean she can concentrate more on Chemistry and Biology.

Thanks Skiiltan - I hadn’t realised that the number of med school applicants had risen so much. I had assumed that with the increase in med school places (and all the negative press) it might be less competitive.