How Far Backwards Are Oxford and Cambridge Bending For State 6th Formers Where You Are?

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

The last time Oxford and Cambridge were in the news for their largely white and privately educated student body, I remember a lot of talk about how they 'bend over backwards' to widen participation.

So I am surprised that the session where I live (how to apply, what it's like, secrets of successful interviews etc) delivered by an Admissions Tutor from Oxford is happening at the most expensive and exclusive private school in the city. Other sixth formers can go, and our school has let anyone interested know about it, but something about this doesn't scream 'WP' to me.

I know there's an argument that this school probably has the Oxford contact, it works fine this way, if everyone can go then what's the problem... there are three private sixth forms, one state college and four state 11-18 schools here: it had to be somewhere.

But the message this gives out is - private schools are where you go, to go to Oxford and Cambridge, and Oxford and Cambridge are where you go from private schools. The link gets made. The very vast majority of state sixth formers here will never have been through the doors at this private school before: for some of them, it might actually be quite intimidating. The whole thing just suggests an inextricable link between private education and these universities.

So I wondered whether this is the norm, or just us? Anyone?

ford The Guardian University League Tables quote the state school intake of each university... Cambridge is not 50% , no... but near it. The only one over 50% is St Andrews.

People are definitely gaming the systems. I work in a high achieving state school. Lots of parents take their DCs out of the local private schools to go to a sate sixth form because they believe the chances of university admission are higher. Because Oxbridge can tick their 'widening participation' box ... which is hardly the point.

You quote by using a then copy and paste , then another and it puts it all in bold for you

I have just looked at the Guardian University League Table 2018 and it states 61.9% for Cambridge for State school and 55.7% for Oxford. The most recent stats published by Oxford show a split of 59.1% (State) to 40.9% (Independent) for offers with applications from overseas excluded. The offer rate is around 60% for State pupils.

Thanks for the instructions on how to quote - I will give it a go.

OK - apologies : I was going from a faulty memory. I still think those stats have a way to go when you look at some other top universities and also speak to the young people involved.

I think the %s of York is what they should be aiming for, personally. I assume they ask them how they do it...

Piggy
I replied and said sorry to you about being aggressive sounding, and why I was interested in this thread, nothing to gain personally.
But can I ask why it sounded aggressive, I lurked for years, I have no degree and only 1 proper O level. I am a very non aggressive dad of 2 boys, eldest will be first to study at university, in immediate family, I have only started post in last 8 weeks and really inexperience and only really post on education, scared to ask questions on any university thread or start one, don't like upsetting people, so if you could give tips it would be great.
Thanks User1471

I think it was the sweary outbursts and all the bold to be honest. I can tell you are passionate in your principles!

I know MN can seem an elitist place. I have learnt a stat today (18% of sixth formers are privately educated; much higher than I thought!) but sometimes, on some threads on MN, it feels like people think well over 50% of children are at private school, another 30 % at grammar and the rest must be undereducated peasants!

Good luck to your DS.

Another increasingly alt fact thread on MN, suppose only to be expected in our increasingly alt fact world

Public school intake percentage, most recent data. Knowing there's bound to be a few RG obsessives, if it is one of possibly the slickest marketing operations EVER, then it is marked as such.

53.2% Royal Agricultural College
44.3% Oxford (RG)
43.3% St. Andrews
39.5% Durham (RG)
38.6% Bristol (RG)
38.1% Cambridge (RG)
34.5% Imperial (RG)
31.6% UCL (RG) & Buckingham
31.5% Exeter (RG)
30.3% Edinburgh (RG)
28.4% LSE (RG)
27.1% Oxford Brookes
26.5% Bath
23.5% Newcastle (RG)
22.9% Warwick (RG)
22.7% KCL (RG)
20.8% Nottingham (RG)
20.4% St Georges
20.3% Leeds (RG)
20.2% Aberdeen
19.4% SOAS
19.2% Birmingham (RG)
18.8% York (RG)
17.9% Loughborough
17.8% Manchester (RG)
15.6% Royal Holloway
15.4% Glasgow (RG)

I'm more with ford on the percentage attending private school at some point. Wish I could find it but a Sutton Trust paper a few years back referenced some research estimating that 14-18% of DCs attend private school at some point.

28 Unis listed above, which leaves about 100 with a privately educated intake of less than 15%

10 more unis are in the 10-15% range, including 5 RGs

28 are in the 5 to 9.9% bracket; and the rest are less than 5% including 1 x RG with less than 2% privately educated. No prizes for guessing the obvious answer as to which one.

Some posters have mused on individual schools. Muse no more. All the Cambridge stats by school can be found www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/statistics Although rather than using the word schools those devious oxbridge types refer to them as UCAS Apply Centres. Data for the past 8 years shown. No doubt similar stuff on the Oxford website.

alt facts or maybe fake news too obviously getting to me :) just to be clear public and private school one in the same for the purpose of my post above. Probably should have used the term private throughout rather than muddying the waters

Sorry, obviously not terribly bright! What is the RG uni with less than 2% ???

Queens, Belfast . I presume its a location thing. Although having visited Belfast during the height of the troubles I found it full of warm and genuinely welcoming people be they catholic or protestant.

That's better :)

Ah, boys that would be the very low number of private schools in Northern Ireland and the fact that not many people from outside NI go to uni there.

orry, obviously not terribly bright! What is the RG uni with less than 2% ???

I'm guessing the newish one in Bloomsbury that does humanities and pioneered liberal arts. Can't think of the name

Oh Queens, Belfast? (Sorry skimming) Really?

New College of Humanities! Do you have a figure for that one, out of interest?

Fine, like I said on another thread, I arrived on mumsnet 5/6 years ago, but not searching public/private schools or grammar, our both our boys didn't speak until they where 3ish, eldest should have attended specialist speech full time, went part time until 7. Youngest have speech therapy until he was 11. I ended up as primary school governor as no one else wanted to do it. I google'd specific funding issues for our school and arrived here. Lurked, then had to join, to continue reading, lurked, then someone started a thread on Lord Adonis and VAT, seeing most people didn't have a clue about living and using schools in any of Lord Adonis's areas, I plucked up the courage to post about a user of Hull & Holderness state schools, ours is inadequate. Since then I posted on a few more, mainly things my kids I have done/experienced. Like schools rugby and rugby league in independent schools.
The joys of being an ex governor and two boys who play sport in a deprived area, means I get asked questions, especially as eldest is applying for uni.
I know a few really bright kids who Oxbridge have failed to engage, enthuse and have read all the Oxbridge state/private threads of last couple of years, the names I used freely say what they do and where there kids go to school, plus so do you. I sorry if it's poor form to name people, I thought it would show I took interest.
But my first post which directly replied to the OP's question and was polite was ignored, I am blunt, lowly educated Holderness lad, but was taught that's rude. I then clearly replied it was wrong to ask which school and not fair on state educated kids. My son probably would just stop speaking, but many of this friends would make my swearing look like child's play.
The problem is most on here live in their educated middle class bubbles and think their grammar/private/public school attending children are no different from our average Hull/Holderness child, you are so sadly wide of the mark. I know kids though don't get breakfast every morning or tea at night. Those parents can't read or write, my boys go to school with them. I told you all of a girl going to Newcastle which Oxbridge failed to reach, Real every day kids failed by Oxbridge, but no one listens, I am not the right person.
so I shout and use course language, you notice but tell me off, like a 5 year old.
Then say no one ever applies from Hull/Holderness area state schools, is there any wonder when some one like me who might try and help them to apply, but is belittled and god forbid one of those kids google's this thread, they go look one of our parents is treated like he is an school kid/idiot. That will encourage them won't it.
So ignore me, I really don't care, but is it any wonder your widening participation is seen as failing in the north

It wasn't ignored user : I read it and actually added my thoughts (which were supportive of your general gist ) immediately afterwards. I have learnt form MN that people will not always acknowledge every post you write. Threads move fast. It might be that the (accidental) shoutiness of your first post meant people decided not to reply directly to you for fear of starting a fight, but I may ne wrong. There was fight earlier on the thread and MNHQ intervened. I noted that your first post did actually bring things back to the OP's question

I am not sure you think anyone agrees with your point of view on the thread but plenty do.

user1471 etc your posts are offensive as far as I'm concerned not because of their shouty nature, I couldn't care less about that, but because of your woeful ignorance about other posters lives (possibly because not everyone has posted their entire life story), and your inability to discriminate between black and white, or all pupils in East Yorkshire and all pupils at grammars etc etc.

Oxbridge didn't fail to reach the girl you spoke of, her teachers failed her first and foremost.

I don't believe that it's possible for you to care any more about widening access than most people who work in it. I happen to think it's important at an earlier stage of education than Y12, so that's where I've put my efforts for what they're worth, but I don't need to live in East Yorkshire or consign my kids to a failing school to prove my sincerity. There are a great many people on here with DC at good schools who don't live in East Yorkshire who have very varied backgrounds and stories. My own father was a wartime refugee who like so many, many others had only a suitcase of belongings to his name. All my siblings and I went to good schools. GetAHaircutCarl may well have sent her DC to an outstanding school but has often referred to her upbringing on a northern estate. Those sweeping assumptions are what are decidedly off putting, not any amount of shouting or swearing, those are water off a duck's back as far as I'm concerned.

And when those bright but disadvantaged DC in East Yorkshire do get to Oxbridge, are they too excluded from the inner circle of people who want to help others educationally and socially simply because they send their own DC to good schools? It makes no sense.

New College of Humanities! Do you have a figure for that one, out of interest?

not included in those pesky league tables.

My highly biased, fact free, view would be that it would be a high percentage who come from private ucas apply centres schools.

However shortly after it was first set up there was an article in the guardian in which a figure of 75-80% was stated - of course this being out of a tiny student body. The student body has increased in size by almost 50% since then, although a 50% increase on a very small number could in many circumstances possibly be seen as somewhat misleading :) as the NCH student body is still very small

Coming back to this thread I see I have missed out on a few twists and turns.
Userlongnumber you do seem to have made some assumptions about posters that are misguided. I have never stated which schools my DCs attended. Nor am I in any shape or form linked officially to Oxbridge outreach schemes.

Young people are failed by early education in certain areas of course
However IME high achievers at a senior level often share characteristics of wanting to take risks including moving away from the familiar environment as early as possible. Perhaps that is why certain first and second generation immigrants manage to push through the barriers of being disadvantaged and are over represented in those who make certain successful careers including academia. Many of my colleagues are international. My colleagues from UK working class backgrounds at failing schools could n't wait to move far away from home in the spirit of adventure and feeling constrained in their local environment. In fact one refused an Oxbridge place (from an outreach scheme) because it was too near home and went north instead.
I honestly think that all I know who do interview undergraduate applicants regularly are really hoping to be able to admit as many bright pupils from failing state schools as possible. It's a win win situation. They can't spoon feed in interviews though as students have to be able to cope with being continually challenged to think in tutorials. The examples of tutors asking about which school the applicant is from in a disparaging way is totally alien to my experience but it only takes a few such examples to provide anecdote that ars not representive but perpetuate preconceptions.

I see you have gone back to the convenient 'blame the teachers' trope goodbye.

If Oxbridge accept they themselves have a moral responsibility to work with schools and young people, and accept the buck stops at them, I do think you could try that too.

I read that the NCH was almost exclusively very expensive independent schools : not surprising, given its location (London is expensive) and the fact that it may be perceived at present as risk taking. I think if you have the security of a good intellect coupled with an affluent background behind you, studies show you are more inclined to be a risk taker. (cf Clarkson and Branson, who always witter on about their poor exam results...)

This risk taking could also be seen in the large numbers applying to Oxford and Cambridge from elite schools, perhaps.

I enjoyed the list of applicants and acceptance rates! Funnily enough, my own school appears really early in the list with more applicants than anyone else on the page! That was a very good year group and geographic proximity to Cambridge and Oxford almost certainly helps.

Piggy it's not convenient at all for those DC who are being failed by poor teaching or by the educational system as a whole if you prefer. There is systemic failure, not helped by teacher defensiveness or platitudes or by being right on about selective education for the more or most able, whatever their background.

Incidentally Oxford absolutely does not accept that the buck stops with them. Oxford as an institution sees the problem as starting much lower down the educational ladder, just as selective schools are banging their head against problems in primary education and so on. You're utterly wrong about Oxford's view, indeed you couldn't be more wrong. That is not its view.