How Far Backwards Are Oxford and Cambridge Bending For State 6th Formers Where You Are?

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

The last time Oxford and Cambridge were in the news for their largely white and privately educated student body, I remember a lot of talk about how they 'bend over backwards' to widen participation.

So I am surprised that the session where I live (how to apply, what it's like, secrets of successful interviews etc) delivered by an Admissions Tutor from Oxford is happening at the most expensive and exclusive private school in the city. Other sixth formers can go, and our school has let anyone interested know about it, but something about this doesn't scream 'WP' to me.

I know there's an argument that this school probably has the Oxford contact, it works fine this way, if everyone can go then what's the problem... there are three private sixth forms, one state college and four state 11-18 schools here: it had to be somewhere.

But the message this gives out is - private schools are where you go, to go to Oxford and Cambridge, and Oxford and Cambridge are where you go from private schools. The link gets made. The very vast majority of state sixth formers here will never have been through the doors at this private school before: for some of them, it might actually be quite intimidating. The whole thing just suggests an inextricable link between private education and these universities.

So I wondered whether this is the norm, or just us? Anyone?

[BubblesBuddy]

I don’t think they are the “wrong” people but there are many who are not encouraged to go by anyone and who are brought up to think it is not for the likes of them and that they will not cope with the other students there and the formalities. It is such a shame that people don’t the value the education but prefer to stay with their “tribe”. It’s hard of course, to embrace something new and different and strike out against your upbringing, but the “right” people won’t go unless everyone gets behind them and pushes. This needs to be teachers, parents, relatives, Oxbridge - everyone that can overcome lack of aspiration and confidence to go for it!

[senua]

I would bet that the worst performing schools never send anyone and most secondary moderns wouldn’t either, despite having 6th forms.

Life is complicated, though. DD's (non-selective, catchment) school wasn't pushy / supportive / ambitious and rarely sent anyone to University, never mind Oxbridge. DD didn't hang around after GCSEs, she moved to a better sixth form.
So sometimes the 'worst performing schools' continue to be that way because of a self-perpetuating downward spiral. It would take a very confident child or someone with no options to think "I'll stay here, teach myself and get a contextual offer" rather than "I'll go elsewhere, get a better cohort, better teaching and better grades".

[tropicalfish]

Something to be borne in mind is there is a huge workload attending Oxbridge. It really is not for the faint hearted. The pace is relentless and you will be working most of the time with a heavy schedule of lectures, labs and tutorials if you are a science student anyway. The 9 week terms are very intense and really would not suit most people: you have to be crazy keen on your subject to study it to that level of intensity and still enjoy it. My dd thinks she is working much much harder day to day than she did for her 4 A levels when she was doing her most intense preparation. She also thinks many of her cohort are unhappy with the workload.
My point is, to cope with the level of work there, you have to be already used to an intense pace of work at a much deeper level of detail than the A level courses demand. This does not necessarily happen through teaching through school but self motivation.
Oxbridge also selects through interview, the reason for this is to test the candidates ability to benefit from the tutorial system; thus the candidate needs to have some self confidence to allow their knowledge and understanding and intelligence to come across. Even with this, there are so many gifted candidates it is not a given that a candidate will get selected as there is a huge amount of competition.
It can be extremely upsetting not to get an offer at the end of the process and can really distract the candidate from feeling positive about their other offers. I can understand therefore why teachers might not want to encourage anyone to apply as the whole process can be significantly dispiriting.

[LadyinCement]

Second that, tropicalfish. Ds has a massive workload. His mates at other universities are astonished that he has to produce an essay a week and then be grilled on it one to one. There isn't time to be intimidated by the huge masses of Bertie Woosters quaffing champagne and indulging in jolly japes...

I'm sure that the old stereotypical poshos are now more in evidence at places like Durham and St Andrews. Actually, I do believe that Reading has the most privately-educated students at a UK university (apart from Royal Agricultural College).

[goodbyestranger]

Reading!!!!

Blimey.

Why Reading????

[LadyinCement]

Have I made that up?! I've just googled and I don't know where I got that from! I'm positive I saw it somewhere...

Obviously some courses are private-school heavy, such as Classics and (unfortunately, but that's another thread) Modern Languages, and possibly the "it's a back way in" courses like Norse & Celtic and Land Economy, but other than that I don't think Oxbridge is noticeably more private school than the other "top" places.

[CountessOfStrathearn]

Durham and Bristol have more privately educated pupils than Cambridge, although not more than Oxford, based on 2016 figures. There should be more up to date figures out any day now:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38842482

[Battleax]

The last time Oxford and Cambridge were in the news for their largely white and privately educated student body,

I doubt they'd make news for having a "largely white" student body. The population of the UK is about 88% White, so to be representative, it should we be broadly in line with that. Which it undoubtedly isn't. But let's be careful what we're saying.

[Temporaryanonymity]

I've tried everything to get my 11 and 8 year old boys into the joy of learning. If they picked up a book I'd be thrilled. By the time they get (if!) they get to sixth form any contact from Oxbridge would be pointless.

Can't it all start a bit earlier? I'm a university educated single mother but I was the first in my family to go. The way things are going I can quite imagine I might be the only university attendee in the family.

Ive tried lots to inspire my boys. But it all might be a bit too late by sixth form!

[Gruach]

His mates at other universities are astonished that he has to produce an essay a week and then be grilled on it one to one.

But ... but ... it's nothing! Truly. Do people really consider that a lot of work?

I guess you just have to be the sort of person who loves being let loose in a library? Obviously my own experience is decades old but I am always surprised when this type of study is considered/described as 'pressurised'.

[goodbyestranger]

It's not nothing when you need to read lots of books prior to doing that essay and then draw from those to think of something not too stupid to say Gruach.

Temporary on the other hand you might be being a bit too hopeful a bit too early (8 and 11 yr old boys + books!!!!).

[Gruach]

It's not nothing when you need to read lots of books prior to doing that essay and then draw from those to think of something not too stupid to say Gruach.

But isn't that why you're there? Are you saying that today's A' Levels simply don't prepare students for independent work?

(I'm not putting this well - but trying to understand why the Oxbridge teaching model is apparently so daunting a prospect now. Because surely that makes a difference to attitudes to applying.)

[goodbyestranger]

Yes Gruach it is why you're there nevertheless the fact of having in effect an exam every single week with nowhere to hide at the back of a seminar room is, by definition, a pressure. I'm not clear that that makes it daunting.

[Gruach]

Weirdly, this, on Widening Participation in Higher Education, has just dropped into my inbox:

researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8204

I'm guessing it might not focus on Oxford/Cambridge though.

[numbereightyone]

If you are in the South East, private or state you have a much better chance of getting into Oxbridge than Northern counterparts.

[Battleax]

But ... but ... it's nothing! Truly. Do people really consider that a lot of work?

Well of course it is, yes, because they all have friends elsewhere and are perfectly well aware that it's more work, by a hefty multiple, than peers are given in corresponding subjects at other universities. They do have context.

I guess you just have to be the sort of person who loves being let loose in a library? Obviously my own experience is decades old but I am always surprised when this type of study is considered/described as 'pressurised

No, I think you're oversimplifying and generalising across courses (and those decades probably come into it too.)

They're all, for the most part, trying to squeeze so much in, in terms of extra curriculars and job applications (from very early on in the course), many of them come from hyper-pressured sixth forms -and the rest are painfully aware that they don't - putting insane pressure on yourself is normal for them. But it's frenetic and it's all squeezed into short terms.

I don't think you can compare to decades past. There just isn't the relaxed approach to the job market, for one thing. Dozens of Skype interviews per term is normal. The college gates don't lock. Everything is much more of a 24 hour culture.

**

I think most of them probably do appreciate the rigour and the stretch even as they're cutting back on sleep.

[GiveMePrivacy]

"If you are in the South East, private or state you have a much better chance of getting into Oxbridge than Northern counterparts."

I don't think that's the case though. David Lammy complained recently about the majority of Oxbridge admissions coming from the South - East, but so do the majority of applicants. Without denominator data so we can see the % of applicants who are successful, by region, it means nothing.

If you've found more information and do have the application to offer rates by region, I'd be grateful for a link as I'd like to read it.

[Battleax]

Here Give (click on each region in turn for the offer rate).

public.tableau.com/views/UoO_UG_Admissions/UKRegion?%3Aembed=y&%3Adisplay_count=yes&%3AshowTabs=y&%3AshowVizHome=no

[numbereightyone]

The 'more people apply from the SE hence more get in' is the usual bollocks people with a vested interest spout. The fact that fewer people outside the SE don't apply is a massive, complex and worrying issue. Perhaps if the government funding for pupils in Liverpool or Teeside or Wales matched those in the SE that could be a start

[Battleax]

There is a variation between regions. The offer rate varies between about 28% and 18%, I think ( I just rapidly clicked through). So the difference is there, but it's not unbridgeable.

Lots of lovely data freely available;

www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-figures/admissions-statistics/undergraduate?wssl=1

[numbereightyone]

Look at the difference in numbers who apply from each region. The system is stacked against non SE kids from the start.

[Battleax]

It's not quite that straightforward, is it? The North East has a better offer rate than London, South East or Eastern regions. I'd like to know what's behind that, specifically.

As to numbers applying, schools have some blame there.

[VivaLeBeaver]

Dds state school are having an oxbridge convention with a speaker. They might be having a mini bus trip to Cambridge iirc. Dd won't be attending. 😁

[numbereightyone]

I hate that kind of response Battleax. You look at the numbers who are in a position to apply (hugely more in the SE and London than other regions) and the huge disparity in funding per pupil and tell me it's fair. Take into account the funding in museums, theatres and other such places the SE enjoys when the same kinds of places are having to close in the rest of the UK. No doubt you are in the SE and the system suits you just fine.

[Battleax]

No, I didn't mean it in that sense.

The point is, there's no point discussing it, except in terms of what can be done about any disparities and to do that you need to be clear about what the cause and effect is and who the players and influencers are.