How Far Backwards Are Oxford and Cambridge Bending For State 6th Formers Where You Are?

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

The last time Oxford and Cambridge were in the news for their largely white and privately educated student body, I remember a lot of talk about how they 'bend over backwards' to widen participation.

So I am surprised that the session where I live (how to apply, what it's like, secrets of successful interviews etc) delivered by an Admissions Tutor from Oxford is happening at the most expensive and exclusive private school in the city. Other sixth formers can go, and our school has let anyone interested know about it, but something about this doesn't scream 'WP' to me.

I know there's an argument that this school probably has the Oxford contact, it works fine this way, if everyone can go then what's the problem... there are three private sixth forms, one state college and four state 11-18 schools here: it had to be somewhere.

But the message this gives out is - private schools are where you go, to go to Oxford and Cambridge, and Oxford and Cambridge are where you go from private schools. The link gets made. The very vast majority of state sixth formers here will never have been through the doors at this private school before: for some of them, it might actually be quite intimidating. The whole thing just suggests an inextricable link between private education and these universities.

So I wondered whether this is the norm, or just us? Anyone?

Oh well, that just proves they aren't bending over backwards QED

I am interested in your use of synecdoche there.

I am at least as well informed as you , having visited both institutions multiple times for widening participation days. Never have they suggested it is anyone's responsibility other than theirs (working in symbiosis with schools). I have found Oxford very welcoming and thoughtful - and genuinely earnest in their desires to change the way they do things. It is a shame that you are telling me this is a constructed front.

Also, another small but critical correction: I've nowhere blamed teachers as a collective. There are fantastic teachers out there - I've always made that caveat in my recent criticisms of certain teachers who dominate these boards with endless moaning about recent reforms and incessant noise about numbers not grades.

Cross post. It proves nothing of the sort Piggy also I haven't even commented on how far I consider Oxbridge to be bending over! You can't possibly know what I do or don't know either - such a fatuous comment, as is the frankly silly comment about a constructed front. I mean come on, you're an English teacher so at least read the words in front of you properly.

I did read your words about Oxford and have just reread them. I think Oxford admissions would not be happy with what you posted and the authority you have assumed to be an expert..

I also find it ironic that you call other posters rude.

But we've had this argument before and I am not going to have another one.

You mention, Piggy, a couple of pages back that having students returning to your school to give a talk "backfired" because they had become too Oxbridgey.

Now this I don't understand. If Oxbridge and its traditions are crap, why would anyone want to go there? Surely the buildings, gowns, the dinners and of course the academic rigour and intensive teaching style are the essence of the two places?

Why can't a humble state school person enjoy the above? Are they not capable? It is patronising in the extreme to suggest that the poor old state school oik cannot access anything out of their comfort zone, and it's an attitude I'm sad to say I've witnessed all too often from teachers, including at my own dc's comprehensive.

Now this I don't understand. If Oxbridge and its traditions are crap, why would anyone want to go there? Surely the buildings, gowns, the dinners and of course the academic rigour and intensive teaching style are the essence of the two places?

For the quality of the education and the kudos. Of course. It's not a theme park.

Piggy I think you have the capacity to argue with a lampost.

What I say is direct from the horse's mouth, so until the horse and I have a conversation in which the horse tells me he's rescinded his views, I'll continue to respect the horse's view, since he's a very sensible and knowledgeable horse and I like him a lot.

The problem in our area isn't oxbridge, it's the schools. They explicitly tell students not to apply. My husband ended helping a friend's son with his applications because the school outright refused to help him unless he didn't apply to oxford. Something similar happened to my cousin who lives in a different part of the country. Both of the teenagers mentioned above were at grammar schools. Presumably the schools didn't want to risk them not having a place (more specifically how that would effect their results) by using one application opportunity on oxbridge.

Pots and kettles spring to mind.

Good Afternoon,
Piggy I am so sorry to you, my post at 22:16 last night(05/02/18) wasn't directed at you, your kind reply help me no end, as did a thread on AIBU, where convinced to stick with mumsnet. it was for goodbyestranger but she has deleted the post I reply and sent another one, so I look foolish.
At the risk of looking more foolish, can I say I was, like my boys, non verbal until I was 4, and had speech delay until 12. I left school in 1985, with a Cse3 in English and Cse2 in maths, due to work I got level 2 function English/maths qualifications last October (2017)
I know my English is poor( understatement) that's why I ask for your help/feedback.
I am so thankful for your first reply and horrified you think I would rudely reply.
I am awful shy, wouldn't say boo to a goose, it has taken me 9 attempts to write this and post, I keep deleting, as I fear I will upset you all.
My first post was to go back to the OP's original question, took me 4 hours to google and I had to ask 3 FE teachers we know awkward ( for me questions). I never meant to be shouty etc., just a poorly educated dad trying understand a world I don't clearly belong to help my sons.
Once again sorry to cause offence. I think I will leave and try to assist my eldest go to university on my own.

No lady not quite what I meant and I did say it was unfortunate it backfired. It felt a little bit like two or three of them were coming to boast (as I am sure any young person might do to younger people) rather than inspire . Their accents had changed and they came across as distanced from our (actually very middle class) students. The teacher who was there who was private school educated and went to Cambridge actually said the same.

I think the problem lay with their expectation of what was expected of them and their briefing (so lessons learned there). There was actually also a lad from a nearby private school who was much better.

But the end result still was 'people like me don't go to a place like that'. that attitude comes from sixth formers when they are questioned : and it is precisely that that Oxbridge are so keen to break down.

I am the state school teacher on this thread and I have never ever ever heard a teacher say any of the sweeping generalisations/ assertions that appear on this thread. When a child says they want to go to Cambridge ,say, the general response is 'fantastic' - but 'what can I do to help?' may not be said . And this education of teachers is what would help definitely!

As I mentioned upthread there are also issues of time for teachers : very few state schools have non teaching staff who deal with university application. we are fortunate enough to have an on site careers adviser but she doesn't deal with university stuff. As I also mentioned DS1's school had Cambridge at a recent careers fair along with many other unis, so that was great to see. I am sure it is massively frustrating for Oxbridge outreach people when schools don't get back to them, which could be perceived as a lack of interest or commitment form teachers : but actually it is way more complex that that. A young woman form my staff just replied to the Pembroke email I forwarded saying she would love to take year 9 on an outreach day but it is the week before her year 11's GCSE exams and she can't get the cover.

I enjoyed the list of applicants and acceptance rates! Funnily enough, my own school appears really early in the list with more applicants than anyone else on the page!

They are interesting up to a point. Cohort size would provide more context. For example in the 2016 cycle :

Hills Road in Cambridge had more offers (33) than any other state school. This from 90 applicants. But from a cohort of around 1100.

QE Barnet 28 offers from 54 applicants, and with a cohort of about 90

Back to the OP's original question the number of state schools in the 2016 list is virtually the same as that in 2009.

Taking a fairly deprived area in this case the HU (Hull and surrounds) post code area there were applications from 9 state schools in 2016, as compared with 8 state schools in 2009. The success rate is hard to tell as pretty much all are in the

Some colleges are getting rid of the dinners and gowns and archaic traditions as it goes. One of the appeals of York was its modernity and down to earthiness and they have often attributed their success at recruitment of state schools to their approachability and lack of 'town and gown'.

It really is just thinking out loud about some of the issues . As I am more than sure they do at quite top levels at Oxford, Durham, Cambridge and so on.

Very interesting boys. My school was 7 applicants from , I think, about 200 students. Fewer than three were accepted (I think it was 1 as it goes)

Hills Road is , of course, in Cambridge . Lots of really close links. Parents fight tooth and nail to get offspring into HR (often leaving private schools to do so) and their entry requirements are high, comparatively speaking.

The student body at Ox made another attempt last year to get rid of gowns for exams. These things will slowly change.

Hills Road in Cambridge had more offers (33) than any other state school. This from 90 applicants. But from a cohort of around 1100. But isn't Hills Road a sixth form full of the children of Cambridge Uni academics and local professionals, so to be expected that they would have high numbers of successful Oxbridge applicants, surely?

QE Barnet might have high success and high applications for enrolment, but it is a fearsomely selective school, with a wide geographical area that it draws students from, in the first place. I don't see anything anomalous about those figures for that school, really.

But again I ask, why do you have to get rid of the "archaic traditions" to appeal to state-school pupils? Why would they not enjoy wearing a gown, or eating in a oak-panelled dining hall?

Deciding that such stuff is all too much for the state schooler is actually trying to keep them down, is it not? Giving them the idea that it's all a bit posh for them, go to nice York instead and stop getting ideas above your station.

reeling it was more the case that given their size and number of applicants their success rate is not that spectacular, although against 99% of schools still hugely impressive Of course this is just the Cambridge stats, they probably have a similar number heading off to Oxford.

But again I ask, why do you have to get rid of the "archaic traditions" to appeal to state-school pupils? You wouldn't have to for all of them but very likely they could be extremely off-putting for those who would consider such traditions to be symbolic of 'privilege' and a way of life with which they cannot even begin to identify?

boys3 sorry the stats jumped out at me without me properly reading your post .

The idea that all colleges should get rid of their traditions seems illiberal to me. If an applicant doesn't like all the traditional stuff, surely they can apply to one of the many, less formal, more modern colleges?

Archaic traditions quite appealed to DS, who had
spent his education in crumbling, asbestos-filled, draughty, nasty 1970s buildings! 'Give me a bit is brick, stone and ivy' he said!
On a more serious point - I think it's unfair to criticise parents who 'consign' their children to crap
Schools. For many (most?) parents there is simply no choice - they. Any afford to move and they can't afford to pay.

Ooh, can I join in please,
Boys3 is it a coincidence you chose HU postcodes for the deprived area search, probably, but its my Home city, I live east of it, separate county council, but HU postcode, and we are rural/coastal.
Sad geek, poor education see my apology to piggy.
So you said 9 state schools had applicants to Cambridge, in 2016, and checked and noted the schools, sadly all but one of the schools are in the posh western suburbs and Beverley its neighbour market, town, not in the city of Hull boundaries, the one which is in the city is a catholic school, with music/sport selection and best results in area.
The two sixth forms are region wide and Wyke regularly takes privately educated children, and you have to pass high entry grades and exams. The other is more vocational, but becoming harder to get in.
I then google'd oxford undergraduate acceptance statistics for 2016, first search list item took me to page, Oxford do 3 year cycles but you can change it to yearly I did, It then helpfully lets you search by either centre no, school name or postcode. I chose postcode.
For HU postcodes, there was 8 state schools with applicants, Oxford say exact numbers so ranging from 1 to 6 per school/sixth form. many had no offers. They are the same 8 as in the 9 at Cambridge page.
There are no schools in the really deprived areas of Hull( east & north) or the lower class eastern villages, historic poorer then the postcodes where the 8/9 schools are located.
Not sure it tells me anything I didn't know, and tried to say in my first post on here. So is it schools and teachers that certain posters are blaming, or do Cambridge/Oxford carry some blame.
I know for certain Cambridge/Oxford have never attended our 7 closest schools, I think their pupils are invited to private school/highly selective sixth form talks.
The first, most of our local school's sixth form pupils meet/see an Oxford/Cambridge presence was in the year13 UCAS open day at local university.
I will leave you very much brighter people to discuss the above, I can help with some local knowledge, but I am not arguing with degree holders, I hope the oxford defenders may see you aren't reaching the right areas, but just the same old ones, and try and change their approach.
Thanks, please continue to ignore my posts though, as no one evers seems to reply apart to tell me off, bit like my school days really.