How Far Backwards Are Oxford and Cambridge Bending For State 6th Formers Where You Are?

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

The last time Oxford and Cambridge were in the news for their largely white and privately educated student body, I remember a lot of talk about how they 'bend over backwards' to widen participation.

So I am surprised that the session where I live (how to apply, what it's like, secrets of successful interviews etc) delivered by an Admissions Tutor from Oxford is happening at the most expensive and exclusive private school in the city. Other sixth formers can go, and our school has let anyone interested know about it, but something about this doesn't scream 'WP' to me.

I know there's an argument that this school probably has the Oxford contact, it works fine this way, if everyone can go then what's the problem... there are three private sixth forms, one state college and four state 11-18 schools here: it had to be somewhere.

But the message this gives out is - private schools are where you go, to go to Oxford and Cambridge, and Oxford and Cambridge are where you go from private schools. The link gets made. The very vast majority of state sixth formers here will never have been through the doors at this private school before: for some of them, it might actually be quite intimidating. The whole thing just suggests an inextricable link between private education and these universities.

So I wondered whether this is the norm, or just us? Anyone?

[Piggywaspushed]

The North South divide thing though was a big thing in Thatcher's Britain : always talked about. it seemed to go away as a phrase under Blair etc right through to Cameron and now made a comeback : perhaps austerity? Who knows, but it does seem to be a thing again.

[ZBIsabella]

That's true although my Oxbridge sibling works in a profession in Leeds after a stint in London so some people do go back and their children's school there (private) does send a good few to Oxbridge. I think they have about 14 Oxbridge offers (14x my children's London private schoo llast summer) this year but that's a private school and Leeds is not the Sunderland area where my family were from - even my parents' move into Newcastle following university was a similar move from relative poverty to a bigger city with higher pay.

[ReelingLush18]

It is often shocking how little teenagers of all backgrounds read Very much the case here too, sadly. We also have loads of books - so many that most of the DCs' friends comment on them when they visit. AND we read to ours from when they were babies.

I kind of get the N/S division (although I'm sure in the past it won't have been so apparent) because London is where most of the opportunities are. Of DSib's Oxbridge group of friends, most came from Midlands/North but all are now settled in London (with no notion of going back to their roots). So the bright 'northern', working class kids of yesteryear become middle class professionals and part of the 'Establishment' and have the children who will in years to come go to Oxbridge.

[boys3]

It is often shocking how little teenagers of all backgrounds read

As observations go, absolutely spot on. With my own DC the difference between DS1 and DS3 is startling, and this in a house full of books (possibly the problem?). I'm choosing to avoid mirrors and blame Netflix.

On a serious point though lack of extended reading, possibly less wide ranging vocabulary, less compelling and / or naturally written PS, less confidence in essay writing (for appropriate subjects)........ Although quite how to address this I'm not sure.

[ZBIsabella]

Yes, I read all the works written by all of the authors of my A level English books. No one else in my year did that. No one forced me to do that. The teacher would have suggested it and everyone else ignored it. My parents did not make me or suggest it or even ask about it. It is this question of what we should make allowances for at age 17 to students given a particular background and what we are right to expect (eg high grades or fairly high grades is rightly a requirement from applicants of all backgrounds and in decent subjects)

[ReelingLush18]

Piggywaspushed I'm with you. Responsibility to read around one's subject should be a given (whether one is applying to Oxbridge or not!), surely, if one is serious about doing a degree?

And a love of learning and a curious mind should be a given in anyone capable of getting top A Level grades surely?

I suspect this is what separates the wheat from the chaff for Oxbridge?

[Carriemac]

DD is in first year in oxford, she is quiet, not massively confident but very well read.
State school, then private for secondary and at her private 6th form she was mentored by a former oxford fellow who encouraged her to apply. They were supported by a former teacher who the school employs just to mentor the oxbridge applicants and had lots of prep and peer support. She got into a very competitive course with A* A B so must have impressed them at interview.
Her school had an oxford outreach evening, which invited the local state schools, and perhaps 2 or 3 students came. No teachers attended from the state schools.
Her school had 18 offers and 16 subsequent places out of a year of about 120.
We are northern, but my point is without the enormous support and encouragement from her school, and us as her parents, she wouldn't have got in.
She has no courage or chutzpah but has a very quiet confidence
and she loves the place. absolutely loves it.

[Piggywaspushed]

Bold fail...

[Piggywaspushed]

think where a lot of hopefuls fall down is not knowing enough about their subject, and here I would lay the blame with the average state school. It simply isn't adequate to apply for, say, English having only read the set books. Someone might be great at English, have the potential to be superb, but if you're only able to talk about Macbeth and Frankenstein then you'll look rather unimpressive compared with a candidate who has read much more widely.

Is that the entire fault of the teachers? I am surprised you say that : I might have thought your view would be that a student (form any school) who wants to earn the right to a top place should be reading widely! Teachers only have time to teach whit is on the spec : I do think DS2's school does a better job at widening reading in year 9 than my own does , that said, and I do try to produce reading lists.

It is often shocking how little teenagers of all backgrounds read : it is really rare to come across the voracious reader these days, sadly.

[ZBIsabella]

It's a very difficult issue to ensure fairness. My children's private school had 0% success at Oxbridge last summer by the way so it is not the case that every fee paying school sails into Oxbridge. Mine did not try and are very happy elsewhere as indeed was I (no one had been to Oxbridge from my school until my younger sibling went and my other younger sibling went too). It has made very little difference to my life that I did not go. I went somewhere else good but I would have supported any of my children had they wanted to go in having a go (they did not want to try and I suspect they made the right choice based on their grades (pretty good AAA, AAB etc but not stellar and probably not enough commitment to an individual subject nor most of all desire to go there although they can argue the hind legs off a donkey (the one thing this family is good at is verbal skills) so I suspect at least some of them would have done fairly well in interviews.

I am concerned about a growing N/S divide. I am from the NE of England originally. I do not remember it being so bad when I applied including in terms of comparison of exam results between the N and SE. I have made the problem worse by moving to the SE and I wonder if that has happened a lot - that when jobs go people go, those able to leaving others behind and it then escalates and things get worse and worse. Both my parents got to university after passing the 11+ and had a pretty high IQs too and were in areas where no one was well off at all so the local grammar school was genuinely what it was set up to be if you see what I mean. If there are no well off people locally then the grammar school will in a sense be pure - just the very bright from the poor. They may well have similarly today done fine from a local NE comp.

[ReelingLush18]

So applying for a perceived less popular course which a candidate is not really that interested in is a dangerous came to play. Not suggesting that, certainly not the case with DSib). They just decided, as soon as the notion of applying to Oxbridge loomed (L6?), that they would channel efforts/interest into the 'to be applied for subject' rather than the one where their natural talent fell. They didn't regret their decision. FWIW DSib now works in a field using their 'natural talent' skills first and foremost!

I would argue that super clever people will often be polymaths, so may have very broad knowledge/insights across more than one subject. (Certainly the case for DSib).

[boys3]

not sure I'd agree with some of the sentiments expressed in a number of posts I should have said. Would probably agree with the gist of your most recent one Lady, must type more quickly and not get distracted by something else when writing a post

[boys3]

not sure I'd agree with some of the sentiments.

I think intellectual confidence and thinking outside the box could well be key, and the way that A level courses are structured does not necessarily help applicants. Social confidence I would suggest has little to do with it once an application is in, indeed misjudging the fine line between that and arrogance might be the downfall of those who, on paper at least, are strong candidates.

The supposed strategic benefit of applying to a perceived less popular course and / or a lower ranked college is arguable.

On the latter point the pooling system at Cambridge (and whatever the Oxford equivalent is) will largely trump that. Take a look at how many Trinity applicants get a cambridge offer via the pool, and the balance of direct applicants vs pool for somewhere like Girton.

On the former Cambridge certainly bang on about wanting candidates who are "serious" about the subject, and whilst the application "success" rate for ASNACs is undoubtedly higher than for english or history, I think the same rigourous selection process is applied. So applying for a perceived less popular course which a candidate is not really that interested in is a dangerous came to play. Albeit a game that anecdotally a very small number may be able to play successfully.

I would wholeheartedly agree that there are other great universities out there, and a DC who unsuccessfully applies to Oxbridge will in all likelihood receive offers from other highly ranked unis

One rant enough for now. I'll save the one on the obsession that RGs are the be all and end all for later. :)

[LadyinCement]

I can honestly say that if they were looking for those "three Cs" they messed up with ds!

It's a bit of a myth that you have to swagger in full of personality. The interviewers are not daft - they know candidates will be nervous. Ds said his hands were visibly shaking when he was making a point.

I think where a lot of hopefuls fall down is not knowing enough about their subject, and here I would lay the blame with the average state school. It simply isn't adequate to apply for, say, English having only read the set books. Someone might be great at English, have the potential to be superb, but if you're only able to talk about Macbeth and Frankenstein then you'll look rather unimpressive compared with a candidate who has read much more widely.

dn who is doing English at a RG university said she hadn't read anything that wasn't on the school syllabus when she applied, and of course when you are just given an offer the institution doesn't know (or probably care much if they are a "recruiting" university).

[ReelingLush18]

And it's much more competitive to get into Oxbridge (as with other universities) to read some subjects than others - so that really needs to be considered. And some colleges are more popular than others too.

DSib strategically (and this wasn't advised by anyone else) didn't apply to do their strongest subject (very sought after degree course at Cambridge) because they knew they would have less chance of gaining a place than by choosing a less popular one. So being strategic is vital.

courage, chutzpah...confidence are probably part of the 'special quality' that the admissions tutors are looking for though, wouldn't you say?

[longtallwalker]

User - one thing I wld recommend to your young friends (and something my son and in fact his cousin) did - get your A levels, make sure there's as many A stars as possible amount them (sorry but three As isn't overly exceptional in some quarters), and apply lost A level. Both my DS and his cousin got Cambridge places this way. It removes any doubt the colleges might have about comprehensives and their students being able to make the grade. We didn't know this at the time - but it makes sense after the event! A gap year is a good thing too.
It enables those comp kids to gain more confidence against their (almost inevitably) more confident private school counterparts. My DS worked and did a language course then went to Central America. His cousin worked and is now living it large in NZ.
That's just my advice! Tell your young friends not to swear about getting in at 18. And if they don't make the cut at 18, believe me they'll
Have 4 other great offers if they have good results and again the unis don't have to worry about hiccups in grades

[Piggywaspushed]

I think all of the above is true : I think what Oxbridge want to focus on is ferreting out those talented young people who don't have the same networks as other young people and so may not have the courage, chutzpah or even just confidence to apply.

My impression is that Cambridge is possibly a touch more egalitarian that Oxford and is trying a bit harder - but that may be unfounded.

[ReelingLush18]

My impression is that getting into Oxbridge is still really, really difficult. If you know people who have made it you'll probably know that they tend to be exceptional (and A Level grades don't tell the whole story, I don't think). DSib went to Cambridge and I would say that they and their Oxbridge friends are fiercely clever but it's more than that too. And many of them did go to northern comprehensives (and some came from working class families too). I think the successful candidates often have a 'USP' which makes them stand out from the others. And that 'special quality' that the admissions tutors recognise in successful candidates is something that can't be quantified by grades alone.

I think there has been an outcry in the past when (comprehensive) students predicted all A grade A Levels haven't been offered places. I know a friend's son applied to Cambridge but didn't get in. The friend was most put out that he didn't and yet one of his friend got into Oxford even though "she wasn't as clever" (her words not mine). I think she partly missed the point that I'm trying to make.

[user1471450935]

Thanks for the St Edmund recommendation, I will see them this Saturday and pass this on.
Also in my son's tutorial group there are two girls, poor postcodes,as in East Hull, came to our school, as both Hull options where in special measures, ours required improvement, now inadequate, who are predicted AAA, one in History, English and Music and other History, French and Geography. I think they are classed as good A levels.
One wants to study History, but apart from Sheffield rest are either local or ex ploy. Has chance of Royal Holloway, but keeps asking schools is it good, school not sure, so asked rest of group, they not heard of it. Is it a good university for a girl.
Other wants to do MFL at either Leeds or Liverpool, DS1 says she is seen as exotic by rest of 12 in group.
So its hard for them to break out off their cycles. I do sometimes people forget not ever poor child is webwise and highly resilient, and maybe more could be done early to open these kids eyes.
Thank you for listening

[user1471450935]

It is okay goodbyestranger,
I have put a lot out on Lord Adonis thread, but apart, from the school and him being a national school champion nothing any one be able to guess his identity for Ds1, we are in an area few mumnetters seem to know and even less live in or use.
His university choices are quite local and of the beaten track too.
I know yours are very successful and obviously more high profile.
Mine two will never darken either of Oxbridge's doors.
But we have friends and people we know through his rugby contacts, who have younger children who have the potential to go though.
The switched on ones leave for the Wyke sixth form/private schools.
The rest muddle on through.
I would just like to help the odd one win a chance to do something amazing. It's only since lurking on higher education threads since last year, Ds1 year 12, wasn't go to study A levels, amazing history teacher told him he was bright enough, that I have learn't about RG and the different colleges at oxford/Cambridge. Plus the early deadlines and tests.
I think for many with similar educational backgrounds to mine, higher education is something other people do. So when your child outstrips our intelligence, and needs to go to university, we have no one in our family who has ever gone to university, you go with what little you know.

[goodbyestranger]

user1471 I decided last night's post might have compromised my DCs' privacy so I asked for it t be deleted.

Pots and kettles not a great comeback Piggy in fact incredibly weak. Could do better.

[goodbyestranger]

user1471 maybe suggests she applies to St Edmund Hall in Oxford having gone to the Open Days at the end of June, her A level timetable permitting. Teddy Hall would welcome a visit at any time of year anyhow if she can't make the official dates.There is no aptitude test, it's a straightforward application through UCAS. If she gets her predictions she'll easily find other good courses open to her next year too if she fluffed the interview. Durham's standard offer is AAB, Imperial (for her) would be AAA.

[LoniceraJaponica]

Some of the figures are amazing. There are about 120 in year 13 at DD's school. Out of the 11 Oxbridge applicants 2 were successful.

Having read the threads on here and been close to the process that DD's friend has gone through I would say it isn't for the faint hearted. I think the multiple steps applicants have to take is off putting for many academically able students. I realise that this process separates the wheat from the chaff, but it is enough to put off anyone lacking in self confidence.

[user1471450935]

Also is it really worth someone, the like the girl I mentioned above if she does get her predicted A*AA grades, postponing going to Newcastle and reapplying, or is it better just to go to Newcastle.
I think it would be earth sciences, as she is going to do physical geography at Newcastle. That's all I know DS1 plays with her foster family's son at rugby.
Is she really anymore likely to get an interview this time, I wouldn't want her to waste a year and end up back to square one.
Her school and parents certainly don't know you can apply more than once. I didn't to read this thread.
Thanks for any advice, it's a minefield to us and her foster parents just rightly want her to go to the best university possible to escape her roots. Thanks

[user1471450935]

Boys3
Thanks for your reply.
I know our schools sixth form, HU12 post code had one applicant to Oxford in 7 years we have been associated with it. I know his mum, lived in same village she and his dad went to Cambridge, he didn't want to follow but went to Oxford. Modern college doing Geography, think I may have read it slightly easier to get into?
It says that in the last 5 years 25-35% of students have gone to RG/Medical courses. I think similar low 30% for 2 nearest schools and it's only recent that east Hull schools have had sixth forms. Wyke says between 55-65% head to RG/Medical and Wilberforce again lowish 30%.
Would that cover the Universities you listed. The schools are desperate to help, I think, the girl going to Newcastle I mentioned up thread, was put forward by the special measures school to the UNIQ course, didn't get place. They even begged a private school, which doesn't work them to let her go on a meet the Oxbridge tutors they run, they did allow her in the end. Her form tutor took her personally in her own car and paid for her to get to it. She applied openly, I think but did get a interview.
I don't know the answer, I am not a teacher/governor so can't invite anyone. Wonder if going to a different venue might help, I don't know.
There are bright kids out there, but we in the east of the city are stuck out on a limb, and coastal areas are a tough nut to crack.
Also I know quite of Ds1 friends with potential grades actually want to study courses Oxbridge don't do, or want sandwich degrees and think Oxbridge don't do them. Is that even right?
If not could someone advise me please, we three friend's Dc all in year 12 in none Oxbridge schools who believe this, I would love to tell them to apply, Its only one slot after all.