How Far Backwards Are Oxford and Cambridge Bending For State 6th Formers Where You Are?

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

The last time Oxford and Cambridge were in the news for their largely white and privately educated student body, I remember a lot of talk about how they 'bend over backwards' to widen participation.

So I am surprised that the session where I live (how to apply, what it's like, secrets of successful interviews etc) delivered by an Admissions Tutor from Oxford is happening at the most expensive and exclusive private school in the city. Other sixth formers can go, and our school has let anyone interested know about it, but something about this doesn't scream 'WP' to me.

I know there's an argument that this school probably has the Oxford contact, it works fine this way, if everyone can go then what's the problem... there are three private sixth forms, one state college and four state 11-18 schools here: it had to be somewhere.

But the message this gives out is - private schools are where you go, to go to Oxford and Cambridge, and Oxford and Cambridge are where you go from private schools. The link gets made. The very vast majority of state sixth formers here will never have been through the doors at this private school before: for some of them, it might actually be quite intimidating. The whole thing just suggests an inextricable link between private education and these universities.

So I wondered whether this is the norm, or just us? Anyone?

Geography is a massive factor. Of course more applicants are from the SE. Many 17 year olds don't want to be miles from home, and that's the age they are when the decide whether to apply.

More applicants to Northern unis are from the north. It's no surprise.

Piggy IME it is a myth that private schools and grammar schools extensively prepare their pupils for Oxbridge. Some may pay for a session of interview practice with one of these companies but that is fairly useless. The very selective private schools teach in a way that lessons are challenging and discursive so an Oxbridge interview is more of the same. Perhaps small classes help this. I expect the essays (normal schoolwork) are the same. For example a preU type essay could show more of a candidate's ability more than an A level essay. Nonetheless most successful candidates will have sent essays from their A level schoolwork and educational advantages are taken into account anyway. Grammar schools may have more teachers who have been through Oxbridge themselves but are resource poor. I honestly don't think that more than one practice interview is the norm (unlikely to change admissions outcome) and often it is none at all.
IMO the degree background of the teachers could well make a difference as to whether they have the capacity to push their brighter pupils harder or encourage application to Oxbridge or other such universities. Perhaps that is a difference for the South East state schools compared to some other parts of the country.

"Many 17 year olds don't want to be miles from home, and that's the age they are when the decide whether to apply.
More applicants to Northern unis are from the north. It's no surprise."

This is very true. DD is on medication for anxiety, and she and I would hate to think that she would be at a university 5+ hours away. We visited Bristol open day and had a terrible journey home (and were told that Cross Country often cancel trains last minute). DD had already decided that Bristol wasn't for her, and this was the final nail in the coffin for Bristol as far as we were concerned.

Dd goes to a private school but they only send 1-2 kids to oxbridge a year and they are super bright children with parents who support the process and I think parental support plays a role in these children being successful in getting their places than the School.
Although the school takes the credit for this, it does not have any special interview training. It is a non selective school and excels in pastoral care and it is the main reason why it is chosen . The facilities and clubs etc., simply does not exist when compared with London/ SE private schools.
Dd has been to one open day and she could see the difference in confidence and self assurance the children from these school possess!
We have strict guidance when we interview and I am not sure why the interviewers at Oxbridge feel the need to be abrupt etc.,
Many able children will not want to go through process especially those who are not confident or have anxiety!
Dd will probably apply to Oxbridge but we tell her it is not a be all and end all!

"Many able children will not want to go through process especially those who are not confident or have anxiety!"

So the only students who apply are all super confident?

DD wouldn't be able to get through an Oxbridge interview. The irony is that she is having to undergo the stress of MMIs for medical school. I don't know which is worse.

send I mean this in the nicest possible way but you are in cloud cuckoo land.

The private and grammar schools focus on Oxbridge and RG entry . They drill students. I am not guessing : I do know this and - yes- the small class sizes do also help.

We have two members of staff at my (large) school who went to Oxbridge : one public school educated. Otherwise, al the help our students are getting from the school is not based on much experience. We do have links with a Cambridge college but don't really exploit this ime. The students form my school who have been to Oxbridge are invariably middle class with parents with networks. This is not what is meant to be the target group. Shame.

That said , we don't have that many who don't apply and should . Triple A* A level students are not often seen at my school.

And one of the very distancing things about Oxbridge - even more so that most unis- is the intimidating jargon which means nothing to most teachers and parents. PreU , for example. It isn't insurmountable but it is offputting to some.

Yes sendsummer. It's as an absolute (but persistent) myth that all grammars prepare extensively and very true that they are resource poor. I can't speak for the indies but a number of Oxford friends of the DC related accounts of Oxbridge after school meetings for a full year prior to interviews to prepare and I'm not sure why they'd make that up if it didn't happen. I'm quite sure the teaching you describe over a long period helps far more than 'Oxbridge Club' though.

And I can't talk for all super selectives but my own DC had a single practice interview once they had heard they'd been called for interview and no help whatsoever with the LNAT/ HAT/ BMAT. That was entirely up to them to sort out with guidance from the website. Obviously however, the fact that they are in classes with other able DC will help to a marked degree. As far as I know (I know the backgrounds of almost all the teachers in our school) there are only two members of staff in who attended Oxbridge and yes, it will be a lot to do with geography: no Oxbridge teacher has ever come our way in recent years unless they have roots in the area, there's a massive pull after Oxbridge in the London direction and once young people have partners - often Oxbridge themselves - then mobility is limited and so London retains by far the biggest pool of Oxbridge teachers from which to draw. The practice interviews were along the lines of 'Why Oxford?' etc rather than legal problems, source papers, graphs etc. That said, I really like all the teachers who have taught my DC and have the utmost respect for them. The DC have been extremely lucky to have the grammar as their local school. But it's also true that grammars do not have the luxury of small classes in most subjects (perhaps a few unpopular ones but then those are always under threat) and that too would help.

"And I can't talk for all super selectives but my own DC had a single practice interview once they had heard they'd been called for interview and no help whatsoever with the LNAT/ HAT/ BMAT."

This is what happened at DD's state comprehensive. Her friend had a practice interview on the morning of the day he travelled down to Oxford. He was very confident anyway and probably didn't need the practice (he got in)

Piggy cross post and no sendsummer is not in cloud cuckoo land and neither am I. I know exactly, in great detail, what goes on in superselectives generally and in relation to Oxbridge, as you'd expect if only from having been a parent at the superselective for over sixteen years and with all my eight children attending it and with seven so far having applied for Oxford across several subjects and with a very very marked degree of success. sendsummer is well able to defend herself I'm sure but she's an experienced Oxford tutor from what I know, so will have a very considerable understanding from that perspective.

Piggy I may be in cloudcuckoolmland generally but my DCs have been in the type of schools that you mention and I have quite a few friends, colleagues and family who also have DCs in those types of schools. The Oxbridge clubs for students are mainly an attempt from non selective private schools to show they are stretching able pupils. These clubs are not going to create a successful candidate.
Private school pupils are generallly more confident in engaging people in conversation but again that is not enough.
Self motivation in preparation will help. Consistently being pushed by Oxbridge style teaching will help confidence but as I have said more is expected from pupils from these type of schools.

Both our Oxbridge teachers were educated at their local comp (two different comps but in both cases the comp which was simply their allocated comp - there's often no choice in rural areas).

Goodbyestranger I agree with you.
Just to point out though so as not to mislead that although I have colleagues who do undergraduate admissions, my personal contact now is doctoral and beyond.

Well, I have no knowledge of grammars, not living in a grammar area but I do have knowledge of comps and all the reasons students give for not applying are about lack of confidence and self belief, about having no networks of family od friends with that background and about feeling it isn't for 'people like them'. I am genuinely glad if things are changing abut those are very big barriers which still need to continue to be broken down. It feels like a gradual chipping away rather than the Berlin Wall but let's hope we get there.

I do know grammars are resource poor though. As are most comps outside of London.

A question : how do you consistently push in Oxbridge style teaching when maybe one of a class of 24 can access this level of input? Genuine heartfelt question...

I teach ina sate comp and there are plenty of talented teachers. I am capable of teaching to this level (not all teachers in all kinds of schools are school are) and we do offer EPQ to stretch students but at the end of the day , most of my A level students are B grade students and some are barely Es.

Piggy answering as a bystander I guess you cannot with such a mixed class when you have very little time to prepare. If you had more time resource or were extremely dedicated perhaps you and your equivalent colleagues could offer a weekly afternoon club to suggest extra reading or problems (depending on your subject) or essays for those pupils who were interested and discuss it with them. It does n't mean that your bright students will want to apply for Oxbridge but it gives them an extra independent learning experience. However you can only do what is within your professional time limits.

I think your statement could be construed as making a case for selective schools.

Lonicerajaponica
I can't vouch for what oxbridge interviewers look and how they score ( no first hand experience, knowledge) but on the whole medics are a sympathetic bunch and will recognise someone under stress.

Almost all of the medical school exams, interviews are objectively measured ( as much as it is possible ) and to my knowledge the medical entrance process are the same. We have regular training in how to interview, how to be impartial etc., It is just that the competition is so tough that we have to let go of some amazing children.

We have strict guidance when we interview and I am not sure why the interviewers at Oxbridge feel the need to be abrupt etc.,
ProfessorLayton I missed this. That is overinterpreting what I say. It takes a lot of people to interview applicants in December. That means some abrupt characters (often very bright but not necessarily emotionally sensitive) who will be interviewing. It does not mean that a seemingly confident private school pupil will do any better with these interviewers.

A good deal of differentiation is required even in superselectives though sendsummer/ Piggy. In a class of twenty five history students at A2 perhaps only five might reasonably be considered Oxbridge standard. Teachers have just as much duty towards the other twenty. There really is a relatively broad spectrum of ability (relative being the key word), which is why prospective members of staff are always asked how exactly they would differentiate effectively and how would they stretch the very able while seeing that the others in the class also all reach their potential (this is ideal type world type of stuff). It's a challenge even in superselectives even for very able teachers where there are A2 classes of 25; it's very impressive when its achieved.

As you say Goodbyestranger there is granularity even at the top end of ability for optimising development at school age. I think that ideally during a degree students are able to become mainly self-sufficient for their own differentiation where ever they end-up.

Haha ! Yes it could send : I'm not! It could also be read as a statement for getting rid of all selective schools! Vive la revolution!

My daughter does outreach for Oxford and is regularly frustrated by the attitude of the teachers who accompany their students to Oxford. Many come with old-fashioned a pre-conceived ideas of the Oxford ideal, and often are un-cooperative and rude to the student volunteers who really make a big effort to try to enable these students to see beyond their teachers low expectations. It is also very apparent that students from the North tend to want to stay in the North and those in South look to Southern universities. And I don't blame them for that. You feel more comfortable in a familiar environment and you are closer to home and there is nothing wrong with Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds or Durham.

there is nothing wrong with Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds or Durham

indeed not, but I'd imagine with its public school intake higher than that for Cambridge a significant proportion of the Durham student body is from rather more southern areas :)

I was more tickled by the thought that Birmingham is in the North!

As it goes, unless things have changed a lot, York always did quite well for state school intake.