How Far Backwards Are Oxford and Cambridge Bending For State 6th Formers Where You Are?

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

The last time Oxford and Cambridge were in the news for their largely white and privately educated student body, I remember a lot of talk about how they 'bend over backwards' to widen participation.

So I am surprised that the session where I live (how to apply, what it's like, secrets of successful interviews etc) delivered by an Admissions Tutor from Oxford is happening at the most expensive and exclusive private school in the city. Other sixth formers can go, and our school has let anyone interested know about it, but something about this doesn't scream 'WP' to me.

I know there's an argument that this school probably has the Oxford contact, it works fine this way, if everyone can go then what's the problem... there are three private sixth forms, one state college and four state 11-18 schools here: it had to be somewhere.

But the message this gives out is - private schools are where you go, to go to Oxford and Cambridge, and Oxford and Cambridge are where you go from private schools. The link gets made. The very vast majority of state sixth formers here will never have been through the doors at this private school before: for some of them, it might actually be quite intimidating. The whole thing just suggests an inextricable link between private education and these universities.

So I wondered whether this is the norm, or just us? Anyone?

[boys3]

Joking aside on a more serious point questions about efforts in widening participation should not just be aimed at Oxford and Cambridge. The likes of Durham, Bristol, St Andrews have similar or higher public school intakes. And (apologies for the grammar) the likes of UCL, Imperial, Exeter, Edinburgh have also a way to go. Credit to Oxbridge - from a cost of accommodation perspective few other Unis, and certainly not those at the more elite end come anywhere near matching them for affordability - however for many the perception is that Oxford and Cambridge are prohibitively expensive places to study in.

That said the fixation on public schools perhaps also masks the proportion of grammar school educated students at our higher ranked Unis. Have to hold hands up and confess all my DC are at / attended GS. DS1, and several others from his cohort at Oxbridge, and looking at the annual leavers' destinations it is a core of top unis taking the vast majority,

[Piggywaspushed]

True boys and I agree about those other unis too (St Andrews has a lamentable record!)

However, Grammar Schools really do represent a tiny proportion of school students in the country : of course they themselves have been charged with taking more students from disadvantaged backgrounds...

I'd be interested in seeing those stats, though, if they exist.

[boys3]

they do piggy -something like 4 or 5% go to GS I think, but have a look at the grammar success rate into Oxbridge at least, - significantly over-represented. I think Oxbridge are the only Unis that break down applications and entries at school level - and put it in the public domain :)

[Piggywaspushed]

I suspect many of them try to bury it somewhat! It used to be in prospectuses and they definitely do get published somewhere : The annual Times University Guide usually comments on this (but I have never seen it mention how many of the sate educated ones actually come from comps)

[goodbyestranger]

Leavers' destinations from grammars (by which I really mean the super selectives) vary enormously by school and my (informed) guess is that this overwhelmingly reflects the differences in the parent bodies at those grammars rather than the teaching or the ethos in terms of aspiration at those schools. Grammars, even superselectives, are very far from being homogeneous and there are huge differences which aren't easily identifiable simply by comparing results. There's far more to it than that.

[goodbyestranger]

Also boys you would expect grammars to be strongly represented at Oxbridge or what's the point of having grammars at all.

[boys3]

preaching to the converted there goodbye* .:)

Fundamentally there is a limit to how much university outreach can really change things. In truth, and this is not to play down the quite genuine efforts, its tinkering at the edges, and widened participation will only really become a reality if a whole host of factors are addressed at a much earlier stage, with many of these arguably being needed before any DC even steps foot in a primary reception class. --New Years resolution to always look on the positive side falls flat before the end of January even reached

[goodbyestranger]

Yes I didn't think you were the hardest audience to play!

You're absolutely right it's a continuum and the remaining grammars have been berated viciously for being middle class bastions of privilege. That certainly has an element of truth but there are grammars out there who can genuinely claim that they take in all the FSM pupils in their area who are hitting high L5 in Y6, in other words all eligible FSM pupils.

There's a massive problem with primary school attainment for disadvantaged DC, but then primary school are all comprehensive and there's a lot of prejudice against grammars and a strong disinclination -
if a grammar is superselective and a distance from home - to opt out of the local community school.

Fortunately, although the grammar expansion programme is on what looks like long term hold, there are signs that the government will take a more flexible approach to the code governing admissions which has been a pain for grammar school HTs in that it tied their hands and prevented them from adopting a more flexible approach for disadvantaged primary school pupils, such as looking at their classwork etc.

All bright but disadvantaged pupils, if they live within reach of a grammar, should be identified at an early age, given as much all round support as is possible from both from the grammar and the primary, encouraged to apply, have transport subsidised and then they might be in with a shout at hopping on from the grammar to Oxbridge, if that's the path they want to take at that stage.

[everybodysang]

DSS has been offered a place at Cambridge this year. His state school is in an underprivileged area. They have had talks and lectures from Oxford/Cambridge and visited both. The school has been working hard with the bright kids and encouraging them to apply for Oxbridge/Russell Group unis and this has been going on since DSS was in year 8. There were four Oxbridge applications in his year and two were offered places.

I think it's been a mix of school encouraging and Oxbridge reaching out. I have been very impressed.

[Piggywaspushed]

Or, we could get rid of selective education altogether.

Just a thought...

What about those DCs in live in the (vast swathes of ) the country without grammars? What are your plans for them?

[Piggywaspushed]

That's nice to hear everybody . What part of the country are they in?

[Piggywaspushed]

Anyway goodbye , I'll happily get back in my box because the OP was about STATE schools, which includes grammars. Not going to start a fight over grammars : just wanted to point out, it isn't a 'solution' for a large proportion of the population (contrary to what MN seems to present)

[goodbyestranger]

It's not my business to have plans for them Piggy, that's not my patch.

It's a bit concerning however to see a comprehensive school English teacher make a 'heartfelt plea' for internet advice on how to differentiate for a single bright Oxbridge level student in her class. That sounds alarms bells for me for comprehensives, not selectives.

[goodbyestranger]

Cross post. No quite but you don't fail to implement partial solutions where you can do it just because you can't wave a magic wand to make everything ok everywhere. You just do what you can, where you can.

[Piggywaspushed]

It was just a comment that we need to focus on a wider range of needs.

I actually don't have a single bright student in my class : there are several. And I am more than capable of stretching them. the issues are more deeply ingrained and you know it.

In another post , I believe I mentioned that we did send 7 form one year group to Cambridge My year group when I was their HOY, as it goes.

[goodbyestranger]

Your post about differentiation was clearly hypothetical but it said what could you do if only one pupil was capable of accessing higher level work.

Yes the issues are far more deeply ingrained and sending kids off on a jolly for a day will make remarkable little difference (it's still a good idea, but won't in itself make a dent). The difference lies in the teaching (also, as a secondary thing, in the encouragement and in having a real grasp of what it is that's required at Oxford and Cambridge).

[Piggywaspushed]

Agreed.

[longtallwalker]

My Boy is at Cambridge. He went to a proper bog standard comp - although he loved the mix and challenge of social
Interaction there. The simple
Distinction of dividing state and private schools makes him so cross though. He knows plenty of grammar students but literally not one single comp student like himself.
It's all well and good lauding the 61% or so state pupils who get in, but the vast majority are from super selective schools which are only available in a tiny number of places, and in many instances to the middle class parents there who know and can pay for the best tutors.
Yes I know there are exceptions. And in fact my Boy mat kit have made the cut had it not been or his university educated parents.

[LadyinCement]

Another exception here! Ds from bog standard comp.

Actually ds says the only person's education that he envies, when hearing about it, is the person who went to Westminster. He says he would have loved intellectually challenging lessons taught by subject experts. He has zero envy of Olympic-style sporting facilities, fancy school trips, etc.

I went to a grammar school (now a so-called super selective one) and the teaching wasn't all that, even though every teacher had to have attended Oxbridge or London. I think what was good, however, was the ethos: lots of assemblies, singing hymns (I'm not religious but I know about 50 hymns off by heart), rigorous exams programme from entry.

Dh went to a sink comprehensive (and was mercilessly bullied). Many of his teachers sounded rather inspirational, however. In fact dh was asked to apply to Oxford but the pil wouldn't allow it, even after the Head went round to see them. I never understood why dh didn't stand up to mil, but that's another ten threads.

[finnto]

There is a hint of an assumption on here that if you went to a good university then you must be sending your children to an indy or to a grammar.
Lots of former Oxbridge parents at DC`s comp and lots of very clever pupils in top sets - a handful amongst best in the country for their subjects.
Also taken as a given that if you went to good RG or Oxbridge that you will be rolling in cash or able to "find your way around the system." Lots of us gave up or were forced out of, power jobs and commensurate mover and shaker contacts when we became parents.
And UCAS/ syllabi changed so much, even over the past ten years, as to be fairly unrecognizable to lots of former grads!

[finnto]

Or even middle-aged graduates. (grin)

[LittleHoHoHo]

Bristol has run access schemes in our local state comps. Teachers occasionally suggest a university talk to ds. I have not heard of any admission talks coming into the schools.

A number of ds's friends have access offers at Bristol.

[LittleHoHoHo]

The students travel to Bristol for the course and travel expenses are covered which is great as the low income students have been able to attend.

[LadyinCement]

[waves weakly at fellow middle-aged not very rich or successful parents... still rambling about UCCA forms and - gulp! O Levels... and 2EE offers...]

[DrMadelineMaxwell]

Application for the 3 day (free) residential course at Magdalene for April put in tonight for DD. Even if she doesn't get offered a place (and I think only 3 pupils from the area went on it last year) then it's been a good process for her to go through.