How Far Backwards Are Oxford and Cambridge Bending For State 6th Formers Where You Are?

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

The last time Oxford and Cambridge were in the news for their largely white and privately educated student body, I remember a lot of talk about how they 'bend over backwards' to widen participation.

So I am surprised that the session where I live (how to apply, what it's like, secrets of successful interviews etc) delivered by an Admissions Tutor from Oxford is happening at the most expensive and exclusive private school in the city. Other sixth formers can go, and our school has let anyone interested know about it, but something about this doesn't scream 'WP' to me.

I know there's an argument that this school probably has the Oxford contact, it works fine this way, if everyone can go then what's the problem... there are three private sixth forms, one state college and four state 11-18 schools here: it had to be somewhere.

But the message this gives out is - private schools are where you go, to go to Oxford and Cambridge, and Oxford and Cambridge are where you go from private schools. The link gets made. The very vast majority of state sixth formers here will never have been through the doors at this private school before: for some of them, it might actually be quite intimidating. The whole thing just suggests an inextricable link between private education and these universities.

So I wondered whether this is the norm, or just us? Anyone?

[numbereightyone]

It is really not that simple Battleax.

[HoofWankingSpangleCunt]

Thank you posters upthread and battleax for your posts. I realised pretty quickly at the Open Day that DD would be far better off at Oxford (course suited Dd more than Cambridge) in terms of financial support than in any other RG university. My DD has looked at a great deal of info and discovered that her allocated college has far less £ per student than some of the other larger colleges. We are therefore looking at whole university bursaries if that makes sense. This is the only time I have ever been happy with the fact I'm disabled and not currently in employment and therefore on benefits. Which is ridiculous really.
I totally agree with your comments about being ballsy. I tried to bring Dd up with a "can do" attitude. She is also blessed with an innate sense of purpose and motivation. Or maybe she is desperate to escape our straightened circumstances and my distinct lack of any sort or drive.
(It is hard these days on Mn to discuss being poor. Ther have been so many absolute bastards earning money from duping kind hearted posters that I'm reluctant to say anything connected to money. However, it seems daft to be silenced when discussing our current situation as it has been necessary and relevant at times. The support and information on this thread is outstanding and that is essentially why I'm posting.
Thank you all you PPs upthread

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

Hoof mine is applying to Uniq too - I know it's highly competitive and her odds are long, but it's interesting what you say about the kids who went - and encouraging to hear that it was a good experience.

I wish your dd lots of luck.

[Bekabeech]

There may be a disparity of applicants from the SE as more parents who've been to Oxbridge probably live in the SE. And it is less daunting for second generation applicants.
I know that as well as Sixth Form outreach Oxford does some regularly from about year 9. And on top of that is locally going into Primary schools in deprived areas, to raise aspirations.

[longtallwalker]

DS is at Cambridge. Came from a v big standard comp which never had an Oxbridge speaker, although did have someone from the local (non RG) uni come and speak. The local
Private school had a special Oxbridge interview prep day to which it invited state sixth formers.
Son's impression though was that the private students had already had plenty of in house prep for entrance exams and interviews.
I guess you can't blame a school for trying its hardest, esp when parents are paying for it. But DS came away thinking 'how the heck...?'
He did obv manage to get in but did it post results after stellar results.
It's not fair. Oxbridge really ought to try harder partic at interview stage, to recognise that some applicants have had zero prep and insight

[goodbyestranger]

Hoof you don't need to do anything at all for your DD to qualify for the Oxford Opportunity Bursary. She may also be offered a Moritz Heyman Scholarship automatically if she does well in her A2s. All you need to do is fill in the Student Finance as you would in the ordinary course of things and be sure to tick the box that you're happy for Student Finance to share your financial details with Oxford. No research/ additional applications needed whatever!

[Piggywaspushed]

I know it has changed (a bit) but Oxbridge itself needs to take some responsibility for the way it 'recruits' particularly the interview processes which suit confident, articulate entitled types. I know schools could prepare students but schools are not known for being awash with Oxbridge graduates!

I am still scarred by my interview experience at Lady Margaret Hall. I applied form Scotland. The don who interviewed at me sneered at my tartan skirt and told me to explain my qualifications as he 'couldn't possibly understand what they meant'. Me no would stand up for myself and give him what for . Me then crumpled and gave up. I didn't get in. Gove did. Go figure.

I would now absolutely tell anyone from 'the provinces' to research the- very different- track record of different colleges in accepting Scottish students, state students etc etc

As a teacher, I have had very positive dealings with Pembroke. However, it's not my role of responsibility at school and I do find it hard to get other (over worked , hard pressed) teachers to get the interest up in all the bureaucracy and organisation of visits , trips and outreach . Private schools usually have a whole non teaching employee to sort that stuff out!!

Quite a few unis represented at DS1's HE evening last night : mostly non RG : but Cambridge were there! Hoorah! Mobbed, they were.

[Gruach]

but Oxbridge itself needs to take some responsibility for the way it 'recruits' particularly the interview processes which suit confident, articulate entitled types

In which case, perhaps, they would need to change the way they teach? The people I know who do teach at Oxford or Cambridge are acutely aware of needing to take students who will respond well to the way they are likely to be taught for the next three or more years.

[Piggywaspushed]

Which means what gruach?

I think you can bring that out in people? Surely they don't need to be the complete product on arrival?

[IveGotBillsTheyreMultiplying]

There are so many bright A* applications from all types of schools it is a lottery in the end, especially on courses with small intakes.

I've seen plenty very articulate, confident students not even get to interview from our state school and plenty who get in. I think it's right to encourage applicants even if the chances are slim. If you don't go fishing you won't catch fish.

[GiveMePrivacy]

Here's an article from the Principal of LMH about the Oxford interview process and some of the wrangling surrounding it, making allowance for backgrounds etc.


This one is about the [[http://www.lmh.ox.ac.uk/about-lmh/principal/hells-passage-principals-blog/admissions-3-pooling
Pooling process and the 'horse - trading' between colleges.]]

Interesting re widening access.

[LoniceraJaponica]

DD's school invites any potential year 12 students to an Oxbridge convention. Last year it was in Liverpool. DD went and came back enthused about studying biomedical science at Oxford. She and her friends said that the Cambridge presenters wer unfriendly and snobby, but Oxford was very welcoming.

Knowing what I know now DD is not Oxbridge shaped at all and did not apply there. She doesn't like the way they do the course she is interested in, she wouldn't be able to cope with the intensity of it all, and while she is a good all rounder she just isn't passionate enough about any one subject to live, breathe and eat it 24/7. This would come across at an interview (if indeed she had ever got that far).

11 students at her school applied to Oxbridge and 2 were successful, both for history. Not to belittle their achievements, but they are both passionate about their subject and therefore it is easy for them. It would be the equivalent of DD doing a Harry Potter degree in terms of passionate interest. One of them has less than stellar GCSEs (only 1 A*), but lives in a postcode where he would have been given a contextual offer. He is bright though and thoroughly deserves his place.

Out of interest I would like to know which subjects are easier to get in to as the 9 unsuccessful students are extremely bright and applied for maths and science subjects.

[Dozer]

It is far, far harder IMO to get the high grades required, let alone interview skills etc, at some comprehensives than at “super selective” grammars or selective private secondaries.

Oxbridge won’t “lower the bar” for comprehensive pupils, even though a subset of teens from those schools will IMO be equally or even more academic and hard working as DC in better schools, but get lower grades.

IMO a good experiment would be to pilot lottery for offers to Oxbridge for pupils meeting certain criteria (high potential, schooling, family income), and offer minimum grades (lower than usual!)

[LoniceraJaponica]

DD's friend has to achieve 3 As for history. He achieved an A* and 2 As in the mocks, so he is more than capable. Oxford certainly saw his potential in spite of his GCSE grades.

[Dozer]

Being “ballsy” can’t compensate for shit teaching and resources and low family support.

[numbereightyone]

Well said Dozer. The cards are stacked against a lot of pupils but it's still their fault for not having the right attitude.

[BothersomeCrow]

I think interviews have changed a lot in a generation. Mine were in 1990 and the urban myths were the only info we had, but stood me in good stead as one of my Cambridge interviews was essentially "why should I let you into my college? Are you going to win a Nobel prize or something?" me: shrug, well somebody's got to.
Result - you're in. Because they knew candidates were bright but they wanted people gobby enough to stand up to the supervisors and ask the disruptive questions.

Now they know being so rude puts off lots of students they want to attract, the style of other interviewers is most common, quizzing "how do you know" in greater and greater depth and seeing how you cope when you don't know stuff.

My college was particularly strong on outreach - over half from state schools even then- but my DoS who ran and still runs it says that private schools contact them and beg for visits, grammar schools never turn down a visit, but at least a third of other schools they call and offer visits to, turn them down saying it wouldn't be relevant/kids wouldn't be interested or suitable. And lots of others don't make the logistics work - given both Oxford and Cambridge are an hour from London but it's much harder to get from them to the North, and most students are from the SE, trying to get a tutor and couple students somewhere is harder for remoter areas. And lots of prospective students do want to be nearer home, especially given that Manchester, Durham, Newcastle etc are good universities.

It's a shame if anyone lets one person or opinion put them off anywhere, but universities aren't the only messengers. Back when I was an undergrad some groups of ethnic minority sixth formers needed showing round so I (white southerner) and a northern Asian guy did it. Turned out he put his group off totally by citing the main advantage of uni was being able to have loads of sex, which disgusted the girls and the boys were unimpressed. My lot were shocked by the lack of brown faces and one piped up that they'd heard Cambridge was less than 5% non-white which was disgusting. I was puzzled as at the time the UK was about 5% ethnic minority in the census, which included Irish and other white groups. After some discussion it turned out that all the kids were from London or Bradford, and without exception believed that the UK was about 20-30% Asian/black people because they lived in majority non-white areas and didn't travel far. A few believed me when I explained there were huge parts of the country where people had never met a non-white person, but most were convinced it was racism that led to most TV shows being about white people. They all planned to go to uni in London. Nowadays the student guides get some training but encouraging kids to consider moving to a university needs to start in primary school.

[Johnnycomelately1]

I was on an ‘essay a week’ course at Cambridge. It’s really not that hard/pressured. Compared to working FT it's a piece of piss.

Trick is: don’t read the books- intro, conclusion and 1/2 relevant chapters.

[LoniceraJaponica]

An essay a week is far less pressure than what the students at DD's 6th form are doing currently. I suppose it depends on how long the essay has to be.

[BothersomeCrow]

Depends how you cope with different types of pressure. A level essays are often just checks you have understood the material and can reel it off, a bonus mark for anything beyond the syllabus, and even if you cock up then the comments will be returned in private nowadays, ditto test results aren't posted on walls any more.
Cambridge essays - first find books/papers, get to grips with topic, create argument, produce essay, then argue for it with your tutor and a couple other students picking holes in it. Subjects vary - sciences are more on what evidence is out there and less of your own views, and reading an essay out loud has mostly died out, but there's a lot more personal attention on you.
I found doing sciences that I did as much chemistry in first year as other students studying Chemistry at redbrick unis, ditto my other two sciences. You were just expected to grasp stuff immediately.

[LoniceraJaponica]

Did you find that doing science required more study and contact hours than someone doing a humanities subject?

[BothersomeCrow]

Japonica - science is certainly more contact hours! 12 hours of lectures rather than 3-5, including on Saturdays, plus 3 afternoons in the lab plus 2-4 hours of tutorials a week. Arts students may have similar numbers of tutorials and are expected to spend similar hours reading up in the library, then similar numbers of essays/assignments. Difference is flexibility of time (arts types still get the classic Wednesday afternoon off for sports etc) and you can get away with some skim reading and less in-depth essays but blagging science is harder.

[ProfessorLayton1]

Bothersomecrow - impression that oxbridge is full of middle class white children still holds true unfortunately.

I don't think Previous Oxbridge admission procedures alone are the reason for this. Some of the bright Asian kids want to go to London and a lot of them refuse to even consider Oxbridge. A lot of them who don't get in blame their failure on various things, race being one of them - I am sure, at least from my knowledge on MN and reading about the whole admission process, this is not the case.

[sendsummer]

IME Oxbridge admissions has changed in the last 10 years so older experiences of the process do not represent the reality now. First of all it is much more competitive, increased numbers of applicants including more bright international students. That means that many of our generation who got in would not now however suitable for Oxbridge teaching.
Secondly the process is much more standardised and scored. The interview is one component of that, the admissions tests or submitted essays also contribute to the post interview decisions.
There is no denying that for many courses a student will be at an advantage if further advanced in their subject whether through lots of extra work or by applying post school. If two students are equally able to grasp concepts quickly and be teachable then the one who can answer more questions will win out (after adjustments for educational advantage). Although answering more questions can be from sheer brilliance it can also be due to the applicant just knowing or having read more. There are loads of candidates who would have probably walked in 10 years ago but miss out now due to there being many like them and only the narrowest of margins from the accumulated scores.
Interviewers can still be abrupt, critical of errors and dismissive unfortunately which naturally does n't help nerves if a candidate is unlucky enough to get them.

[Piggywaspushed]

That last bit isn't just about nerves though , send. Many of the private school and grammar schools extensively prepare students for interviews, including acting tough and mean to prepare the students ( and let's face it, not entirely altruistically : a lot of top schools who have such fantastic results and , therefore, judges on Oxbridge entrants). many of these schools run debating clubs and competitions too. Many state schools in London (like that sixth form free school) also do this now with all the extra funding London has had over the last few years and all the networks , connections and cultural capital students can gain more easily . Most state schools in more humble circumstances really have a huge range of things to focus on and Oxbridge really is going to be low on the list of priorities. They will be delighted for any student who gets in, of course.

And it really only is in urban areas where there are private schools supporting state schools in this kind of thing.

I do also think it is churlish to ignore the SE / rest of country divide. If students have easy opportunities to visit Oxford or Cambridge they might feel happier about applying. We did send 9 to Cambridge one year but it is practically a local uni, and I took those same kids on trips there from year 9 onwards. As a result, they forged links with a couple of colleges and that helped.

Submitting essays surely only widens a divide if the student doesn't have teachers, parents, acquaintances who know what Oxbridge might want to see?

I am not sure what the answers are but I do think some of the issues are ingrained. And until a load of kids from low to middle achieving comps in Grimsby or Hull or Great Yarmouth or Blackpool gain entry nothing really will have truly changed.