Open days - what attracts you? What puts you off?

[shovetheholly]

I'm interested in hearing about your experiences of open days!

What attracts you and your DS/DD to a course or a place? What puts you off? What kind of information is it good to receive about the course? How much does the city/town of the university matter? How significant are job prospects later on to your decision? Do open days always confirm what you already think, or has one changed your mind (either positively or negatively)?

Am asking because we rarely get honest feedback from parents on the day (for obvious reasons), and I'd love to hear what you REALLY think... and get a sense of what we can do better.

Part of the problem for us is the timing too! We know roughly how many places we have, and we know how things were last year and the year before. What we don't know is what demand will be like in the year we're in - and at the moment, the unknowns are quite a lot higher than they were, say, 10 years ago. I don't know many heads of department who aren't a bit worried about recruitment right now. When you combine that with the fact that a lot of the top 20 universities are expanding, it leads to some genuine uncertainty about offers. I don't think anyone means to be deliberately misleading. We don't rate ourselves on our offers in that way - it's definitely not part of our PR, even though it might feel that way to applicants (you can't really imagine how insignificant the grades are by comparison to REF scores, student satisfaction scores, and what will be TEF scores in future).

With numbers down this year, I think it's worth borderline students who really fancy a higher-ranking place just going for it, to be honest.

needmore - I think you're right, it's a generational problem, a young people's problem. And that is so desperately sad. Personally, I suspect that students are being subjected to a kind of Foucauldian discipline at school (and sometimes, sadly, also at home) where they are told that they have to work really, really, really, really, really hard (and keep their noses clean) to get on in life and free themselves from the horrendous burden of debt - not only is this about peak performance, it's about a transformation of the self from within into a model, disciplined worker. That discipline is carried right through downtime too (I saw an interview with 18 year olds saying they didn't drink on a Friday night because it might affect their homework on Saturday). In actual fact, as I said, this very pressured way of being doesn't seem to translate into any additional academic performance, just into mental health issues and a sense that a lot of fun, youthful experiences are bad and wrong, leading to corrosive guilt and lack of self worth.

To add to the problem, schools (and this is the fault of the government and metricization and targets, not of teachers) are teaching to the test, and students are often really burdened with an excess of extra-curricular activities (fine if they enjoy these, not so much if they are just doing them to tick some boxes). Frankly, in spite of all this work and discipline and effort, the students we are getting are more and more lacking in some key skills that we need - daring, originality, risk-taking and creative flair especially. This isn't a fault emanating from the students themselves, who are often trying ever so hard and suffering all kinds of nervousness and burnout. The system is really letting them down. I think I speak for many academics when I say that we do NOT want to see young people treated this way, particularly as there is so little benefit to the student or society. I am fed up of seeing the suffering it creates.

Less than 30% of students meet or exceed there predicted grades. UCAS REPORT 2016. It's a crazy system. I'm with the DH of the earlier poster who thinks we need to move towards a system where students apply with achievable results. Less stressful, much fairer and less guesswork.

shovetheholly wonderful posts, yes to the Foucauldian neo-liberal discipline. And the awfulness of schools teaching to the test, although I know why they have to do it.

And yes yes to the post-qualification application. Although there would have to be a very careful thinking through of academic & admin staff workloads, and work/life balance. It's already pretty shit, and we can't do much more.

senua you sound very angry? I'm not sure what you think we want, or how you think universities "got what they asked for"?

We need a transparent & fair way to find students who will cope with & thrive on our courses. In my department (and most of my discipline) we still interview. I ask questions directly coming from the PS. There is a growing body of research which suggests the socio-economic advantage starts showing itself in educational attainment at a very early age. By the time a pupil is 17 or 18, the gap between the haves and the rest is very difficult to bridge. Extra-curricular activities can be an indicator of economic advantage, so it would be unfair for those to be a significant factor in any admissions decision.

Sometimes we can't be "honest" about the lowest grade, because we just don't know. It's not always about competition.

Grades do a number of things. Attached to individual pupils, they:

• indicate capacity & ability at the highest secondary level of education
• indicate potential

but they can also be used by universities as a way:

• of controlling intake numbers
• indicate the expectations of knowledge and/or achievement at entry level to a degree

It's complex. You want your DC treated as individuals, staff on the ground would also like to do that.

But over the last decade & a half, UK universities have moved from an elite to a mass education system. The funding was sort-of there at first (under New Labour), but is now receding.

More Open Days? Who will resource them? I don't get a day off in lieu or overtime for working on a Saturday at Open Days. I do the minimum that my collegiality requires of me - I take my turn. I'm not happy to do more as I work long enough hours already. More staff at Open Days - who will pay for that? Open Days etc cost a lot (even though academics are doing it as unpaid labour). What would you like us to cut so we can do more Open Days?

These are real questions we face in universities. Seriously, we do - I've been in meetings where this is how the conversation goes..

senua you sound very angry? I'm not sure what you think we want, or how you think universities "got what they asked for"?

I'm not angry. My DC have been through HE and seem to have escaped unharmed.
In my day, Universities used to read PS and interview ; they knew who/what they were getting. Now Universities, in a lot of cases, merely stipulate exam success (with frequent grade inflation) and do no further screening of suitability (see examples above of students applying for parent-preferred subjects instead of following their own interests).
Universities have requested pupils to become exam-machines and society has also placed more emphasis on academic success / academic background (i.e. grad schemes want a 2i from an RG).
The system creates anxiety concerning academic performance (anything less than an A Grade is a fail) so we shouldn't really be surprised to see it producing MH problems.
Bring back norm-referenced testing where most people were allowed - expected, even - to be average.

Many other countries have always done university entrance without interviewing, relying on grades. They also haven't expanded the number of university students as much as we have.

Yet they still see an increase in MH problems amongst their students.

So the rise in MH problems is not just about the change in our university system in the UK. It is related to social media, globalization, the disappearance of skilled manual labour jobs and so on.

BTW many European countries operate an open university system where all students with minimum grades (equivalent to 3Bs or 3Cs at A level) can enter. Students who then can't cope with challenging courses transfer or drop out. The onus is very much on the students to decide whether they are likely to be able to cope with the course when they apply for it.

I am not entirely advocating this system, but students are adults and do have to take responsibility for themselves. There is a lot of information available about UK university courses. Students themselves should be asking themselves whether they really want to do the chosen course, whether they are really interested in the study material and so on. A lot of the time students who don't succeed are the ones who don't engage at all with the course. Being really keen on the course is something which would not necessarily be judged well in a brief interview, even if academic time could be spared for hundreds of interviews, but the student and their family could and should be able to judge this.

I'm glad we're in Scotland, although if my kids applied to English unis they needed advanced highers so it's only at Scottish unis they got unconditional.
It is much harder than when I was at uni when I got asked for 3 Bs for a degree now requiring 3 A*s.
We need to look at regrading. My son is currently doing an Erasmus year in Czech republic where an E is 50-59% and an A 90-100%. That seems more sensible. He was pleased to have a range of B to Es in his first semester and not fail anything.
Also league tables should not include the grades you ask for so unis aren't tempted to ask for higher grades than they will ultimately accept just to get further up the table and appear more prestigeous.

I tend to agree that no university lecturer should ever tell students that personal statements are not read. It is disrespectful and a massive put down when most young people have put time and effort into them. And yet, it has been said again on this thread. I think the PS can tell you about a student and how they tick. If they are not read, then it is all about recruiting an exam machine! Except at university a different type of thinking is required. Universities should know more about the students, not less!

My DD went to boarding school and breezed her degree. No anxiety. Organised lots of activities including a ball. I think a lot of the problems come from the work, work, work and work harder ethic insisted on by parents and a few schools. If you have to work that hard, no wonder students explode ! When my DH did his Civil Engineering degree - they worked but not to oblivion. He was ents officer in the union and played in a band. My DD never met any student who had problems. A few liked the clubs but most were normal people. No-one blamed others for their woes or got into a tizz with lecturers. How do some people get so intense?

It does appear that if offers were not an arms race, students would not go into overdrive to get top results. How many did that 40 years ago? Hardly anyone needed to but of course far fewer went to university.

I think anyone can do something over and above study. It is not necessarily a display of wealth. Students can visit an old peoples' home, join the St John's Ambulance and volunteer or work. They can join societies at school. Lots of worthwhile things don't cost money. They cost commitment.

I also think this dotting every I and crossing every T is impossible at an open day, especially re course content. I think some of this detail is a bit over the top and I cannot see how this forensic examination of the course is a good use of time. It won't be much different from one top 20 university to another and the student has already shortlisted anyway. The intensity to get it right is over the top. Many employers aren't that bothered what units anyone did at university. They look at much more than that!

The best idea is for parents to go to lunch or shopping!

I do think that with courses like engineering all students should get to see round the departments though, otherwise it's just the most organised students (or parents!) who get to go. I think it's better for lots of prospective students to see a bit than a few to see a lot. There are always applicants days for more thorough tours. Open days are just to decide if a place is in your top 5 or not, apart from Oxbridge where it's a whole extra fangle applying there and you want to be sure it's worth the hassle)

Lots of really good posts here. I just wanted to describe a very counterproductive offer holder's open day that my DD1 went to, some years ago, for an ab initio MFL - the university staff's idea of an activity to engage the prospective students was to show them a video in the new language, which none of them spoke yet, obviously, and sit around laughing at it themselves while not explaining it to the applicants. My DD1 was so put off by this and other aspects of the offer holders' day that she went elsewhere, and is currently sharing a student house with someone else who made exactly the same decision for the same reason. My other DD was put off another university because the drama facilities were locked and unattended on the open day - we spent 20 minutes trying to find them and then found they were shut anyway. I agree with the PP who said lectures on things like finance are probably not very useful for most visitors, because many schools explain all this, and anyway these lectures are all covering the same ground. It's the differences between one uni and another with extracurricular things, subject user-friendliness, etc, that sways how applicants feel. Nobody wants to feel stupid or unwanted, but that sometimes happens.
The other thing that bugged me about some open days was how hard it was to find a cup of coffee (not at all of them). Exeter (not that either DD went there in the end) was really good about this, importing local food market people to provide extra catering, which was a win win because it meant visitors wasted much less time queuing for food (always annoying), the food was better, and also the local vendors got some extra business. But I've been to others where one ended up being desperately grateful to find half a plastic cup of warm orange squash in the biology lab. Trailing round an unfamiliar campus trying to find sessions on a photocopied timetable is really tiring, and if there are only a few catering outlets with massive queues then everyone ends up fractious and not concentrating on the matter in hand. Putting a few student ambassadors on coffee duty would be a great idea. Yet another annoying thing is not having the accommodation tours go on after the main lectures. You prioritise the academic stuff and then rush out to visit the accommodation and find it's shut. Again, it doesn't really matter, in that you can't visit it all anyway and it's not a reason to choose a university, but it just makes the day more stressful.
Completely agree about dominating parents, off-putting student ambassadors, etc. With hindsight, the course changes between open day and degree anyway, so no point in getting hung up on details of that. May as well just go on general ambience and hope for the best, almost!

I agree with the PP who said lectures on things like finance are probably not very useful for most visitors, because many schools explain all this, and anyway these lectures are all covering the same ground. It's the differences between one uni and another ... that sways how applicants feel.

The trouble is that Universities are trying to prise apart applicants and parents, so they can talk directly to the pupils without having pushy parents butting in. So they do the 'distract the toddler' routine and say "come over here, parents, we have important information" and then they all give the same student finance lecture. I probably could have given the lecture myself, I heard it that many times!
Perhaps, given the talk on here about MH and stories of helicopter parents, there could be a variation in the parental talk - something about how they can help their DC better and what they need to do to ensure that DC make the most of University i.e. take a step back and don't try to sort things for the DC; show them how (and who) to ask for help and access the right resources (and how to do it at this particular Uni).

I think there is value in a parent talk on "what the University can offer", which would include welfare, health, careers, accommodation and finance - including bursaries and emergency help. And what the University can and can't do in a crisis in terms of talking to parents. None of us know when we might be steering our DC towards different students services, and reading of this board gives a good idea of the sorts of questions that might be covered.

This is what the LSE did for, mainly overseas, parents on its welcome day. Plenty of young people are not that good at seeking help, so it is useful as a parent to say something like "have you tried the careers office" or "can you register at the health centre."

I think there is value in London, and perhaps elsewhere, for the finance talk to include living costs, if only to bust the myth, often repeated on this board, that some Universities are unaffordable. Parents can read up about student finance but may well be helping their DC tot up the figures and work out how much they will have to contribute

I went to an open day with great trepidation after reading on MN about pushy parents dominating the proceedings, huge crowds and worthless talks.

I am pleased to report that it was not terribly crowded, the university deftly separated students and parents, and the students who showed us round were all absolutely lovely.

Perhaps, given the talk on here about MH and stories of helicopter parents, there could be a variation in the parental talk - something about how they can help their DC better and what they need to do to ensure that DC make the most of University i.e. take a step back and don't try to sort things for the DC; show them how (and who) to ask for help and access the right resources (and how to do it at this particular Uni).

Fantastic idea, senua but cue massive MN meltdown!

As a parent I am very interested in accommodation, transport and cooking facilities. I want our DC to be comfortable so that they can study to the best of their abilities. This means a warm bedroom, access to fresh food and hot showers/baths. And no long commute between their place of study and their accommodation.

I am very interested in the population mix - diverse is best, with no dominant culture(s) that intimidate or drown out others.

And I want to meet professors and senior academics, not admissions and marketing people.

Don't worry, Virgil, they'll find something else to fret about!
Maybe I should set up some courses in how to be the perfect non-helicopter parent. The dichotomy would make their heads explode.

senua

And I want to meet professors and senior academics

We are not your servants!

No, you are the people whose skills we are potentially purchasing.

Add to list:

Make sure University staff know their place.

Marketing people can give a very poor impression.

*Needsmoresleep"

you are the people whose skills we are potentially purchasing

There is just so much wrong with this statement, I can't be bothered even starting. But I starting to see the kind of person you are.

And I work now and throughout my career with some fantastic marketing people - the professional staff who are really knowledgeable & passionate about the university & the opportunities it can offer to potential students. What they are good at is seeing multiple points of view: of the potential student, her/his parents, and the requirements of the academic staff of their students, and the demands of the course.

The good ones are brilliant at mediating between us all - translating, if you like

I am at that story about showing a video in a language some students didn't speak. How very off-putting. I think some departments have slightly crazy ideas about how open days should work (medicine, at my university, is a terrible experience - I know because I went as a prospective student when I was thinking about changing career a while ago! They literally shoved a load of 17 year old kids in a room with body parts and told the ones who went green/fainted that they couldn't stand the heat. I was fine because I'd done some work in a path lab - BUT the first time I was in that path lab, I was a bit shaky! And I was much older! It's not a sign that you're unsuited to a profession that you find something like that disturbing and difficult first time through).

I can absolutely see why parents want to meet senior staff. I'm not senior at all, but I actually enjoy chatting to them and even more to prospective students. The thing is, we can't always send tons and tons of academics along... because we also have a duty of care to the students we're currently teaching - and also all kinds of projects and other things we have to be getting on with! So there is a sensible balance to be struck between making some people available, but not having the entire senior faculty there (this would be totally impossible).

I think a talk about how we support students with difficulties, which also covered how parents can help to support young adults is a brilliant idea. Sometimes it is unclear where the boundaries are, and I think explaining why we can't share reports on progress or exam results, and certainly not confidential medical information, might be useful. I will definitely give this some serious thought.

In terms of 'knowing our place' - I think there is too much arrogance amongst academics at times. But the thing is, most of us working at RG universities know we can fill our courses with good students. So we need to persuade the students that they want to come to us, but there is also a sense that the students need to persuade us that we want them. It's a dialogue, and hopefully one that leads to the right decision for everyone! That's not all about grades. I remember a while ago, a prospective student was outrageously rude and offensive to a member of administrative staff in front of witnesses. Even though they were at the top end of the grades, their name was noted and they didn't receive an offer.

Boho "I want our DC to be comfortable so that they can study to the best of their abilities. This means a warm bedroom, access to fresh food and hot showers/baths."

This doesn't make a jot of difference. Students need to be cold, starving, hungover, knackered, to appreciate the comforts of home - and as Shove said so eloquently upthread - most of all they need to have FUN.

I am so sad that the current generation just doesn't seem to know what that word means. My DC has not enjoyed her time at uni at all. Too much pressure, housemates complaining because she had the nerve to cook fish amongst other very stupid stuff, no community feel..... etc etc

You may fondly believe that marketing people are fantastic but that has not been our experience, nor that of many parents and applicants we know.

I'm not at all sure students are that bothered about "fun". Most applicants I know are really interested in how much they are going to learn at university, and aren't remotely bothered about "fun".