Turning down Oxford offer

[bevelino]

My dd has announced tonight she wants to turn down her Oxford place for Bristol or Edinburgh. She has friends who are studying at Oxford saying repeatedly how hard it is compared to their friends elsewhere. While dd says she will work hard wherever she ends up, she says she wants to live a little and have fun. Dd is at a highly academic school, where A* and A at GCSE and A'level is the norm. I just want her to be happy.

The only experience I have of Oxbridge graduates is at work where we recruit lots of grads from Oxford and Cambridge and I supervise them. In reality they don't perform any better under our graduate training programme than other RG students.

My question is shall I say nothing or encourage her to firm Oxford which I know I could do as all she wants to do is to make me and dh proud?

Fiddle thank you for your suggestion for her to go and stay with her 'working hard' friends at Oxford and Dd is happy to do that.

Molio, the little sisters would love their big sister to go to Oxford, but are hoping she will be supported in her choice, as they hope, they will get the same support. They are watching very, very closely.

Rhoda - I was at UCL (English) and we had a mixture of lectures, seminars and 1 - 1 tutorials. This prompted me to look up the current History course which I've cut and pasted below.

Now whether he would want to go to UCL or not it would seem the answer is no to - is it the difference between a fascinating cup of tea with a cosy professor and wandering out of a vast lecture hall trying to find an unenthusiastic post grad to cast a desultory eye over an essay ? . This will not be the only one - he should have a gander at the course descriptions of his other choices.

Actually DS's tutorials I think are 2 -1 (2 students not tutors - not even Oxford take man to man marking that far.) DS has two friends I can immediately think of who narrowly missed Oxbridge (i.e. called to interview), now have excellent A level results and had offers from UCL. One I know is taking it up the other would have but changed mind about course over the summer. These boys are clever. Ds's offer was A* A A . A friend of his who got a scholarship to SPS missed Cambridge and is doing History at York. It really isn't the case that anywhere outside Oxford ain't worth it (but you knew that didn't you )

Many of our courses include lectures, but our approach to learning mainly places emphasis on active student participation in seminar discussion (usually in groups of 15). Essays you write will be returned to you in individual face-to-face tutorials to provide constructive, personal feedback

Hocus some are 1:1, some 2:1, it varies.

I'm still completely floored by the idea of girl triplets eighteen months after an eldest girl - can't begin to imagine it. Amazing.

Bevelino - good luck with your DD's choice. You have your work cut out with 3 more girls looking at uni soon! DD1 is already at uni and is trying to influence DD2's choice. DD1 picked her uni primarily on the course being what she wanted, the employment rates, and then the fact that she wanted a city environment. She did end up picking the one out her 5 that was closest to home (a thing that initially put her off) but is now very happy that she can get the train home in an hour whenever she wants - it also meant that she went back there for a night out over the Xmas break. I am sure whatever your DD decides will be right for her.

Many, many thousands of students would give their right arm for an Oxford offer. It shouldn't be turned down without very serious thought. It would be a big regret to have if she feels she made the wrong decision. At Edinburgh and, especially, Bristol, she will be surrounded by students who applied for Oxford and didn't get in, having Bristol as second choice.

My DD is in his final year at Oxford, and has had plenty of time for social stuff and extra curriculars - she's done some fabulous things, and made some lovely friends. She's absolutely loved it. The facilities and staffing ratios are amazing. The college system is fabulous for making friends. The kids are really looked after, and the tutorial system means that if they are struggling, it isn't missed.

Edinburgh and Bristol are great universities - DD had offers for both - but it would be a great shame to turn Oxford down because of 2nd hand opinions.

Good for her, her other choices are great institutions.
Many of my friends and my dh went to Oxbridge- in the main they enjoyed it but worked very very hard despite being incredibly bright.
I went to a RG uni and did work very hard at times but I think had a more rounded experience than they did.
Also I enjoyed the experience of living in a big city.
I would not encourage my kids to go to oxbridge unless they were 100% up for it.

Ah - well DS's college have been doing 2:1 thus far - which I am not sure isn't better for Ds as the embarrassment he would feel if he had written a completely rubbish essay and had to discuss it in front of the other chap probably concentrates his mind a bit.
And if you are floored by that idea Molio - imagine how I feel....

Bevelino - I do wish her well in her choice. It's a hard one. If she does go and visit try to encourage her to talk to as many people as possible. There are some evenings when Ds in his room or the library working but this is by no means every night.

Bevelino, a friend's DD put it quite well when explaining to her mother why she did not want to apply to Oxford. She was a bright, hard working and ambitious girl at an extrememly selective West London school. She had worked hard at prep and then very hard at secondary and would work even harder if she landed her dream City job. She wanted the chance to spend a few years widening her horizons with more time for non academic things. So instead headed off to Scotland for four years and a well-regarded degree course.

Her mother, who had worked in the City herself, could not see that this decision would disadvantage her in any way and indeed welcomed her daughter thinking through what her needs were. It may have helped though that her older brother had not really enjoyed Oxford. (A London child who found Oxford a bit small.)

But that was one girl's decision. It sounds as if your daughter is doing the right thing by having second thoughts. If she then decides to take up her offer she will know why she did. And vice versa. Not all her peers will "own" the decision to go, and this may be where problems arise.

Needmore sleep thank you for your comments, which dd has read and appreciates. Cuscus thank you too and dd will not make any decision lightly and will be talking to her teachers and heading up to Oxford to stay with two different friends, one of which loves being there. Dd is a level headed girl who listens to others. She is not in a position to firm her offers yet as she is waiting to hear from St Andrews an Edinburgh, so she has time to consider her options properly.

Dd has found the views of posters on here a great help and wishes to thank everyone.

Do Oxbridge still frown on term-time employment?

Certainly at Oxford I believe so, Senua, unless it is something like some shifts behind the college bar.

A couple of financial points also - as I said upthread, DD held offers from Oxford, Edinburgh and Bristol (plus 2 more).

Bristol would have cost an extra 2k per year in accommodation over what she pays at Oxford, even the cheap halls.

Also, the fees system for Scottish universities would have grated on me - If DD had gone to Edinburgh, she would have been paying £36k for the tuition that many of her coursemates were getting for free.

I don't know about all the colleges, but my experience has been that Oxford has a lot of money, and students feel the benefit. Cheap accommodation, loads of free food, various grants, money available for extra curricular stuff.

You are not allowed to work in term-time at Cambridge either other than shifts in the college bar or library etc. Dd did her first bar shift this week.

I would second what cuscus has said re the financial implications of deciding not to go to Oxbridge. We have just paid dd's first college bill and it was so much cheaper than any other university we looked at. As she will be in college for all 3 years that will remain the same throughout her time in Cambridge.

Not all students at Oxford get Uni accommodation in the 2nd year and if you are one of the unlucky ones that doesn't then accommodation is very expensive and a bit crap. A friends son pays £200 a week for a tiny room - the location is very central though

So you are allowed to find time to row for the College but are not allowed to do paid work?

With the caveat of college bars etc , yes, I believe that unless you get specific agreement from tutors etc you are right.
As far as the OP's daughter's worry about combining (academic) work and having a life is concerned, I've said upthread that I think (certainly History) you can do both, but I suspect owing to the short terms if you then tried to add a fair amount of paid term time work into the mix then something might have to give.

On the other hand the holidays are longer for earning money.

Not commenting on the policy per se, just trying to answer your question as far as I know. .

I think history is a lot of work wherever you do it. Oxford has massive opportunities outside the course and the college system means that you are part of a decent sized community. There is masses of fun to be had in Oxford and I reckon it is one of the best places to have a genuinely rounded experience provided you can cope with the work.

An Oxford degree will open doors that will be closed otherwise. That's not right but it remains sadly true.

An Oxford (or Cambridge) degree is an amazing accomplishment but I can't believe that candidates with good degrees from other top Unis (UCL, Imperial etc) will be met with limited options because their degrees are not specifically from Oxbridge

At least I hope that's not the case.

"I think history is a lot of work wherever you do it" - I agree with this RD but the nature of it means if you are organised you have somewhat more control over your free time than those with a more structured and full timetable.

Shhh - nor do I

Had the same dilema myself eons ago and very nearly turned it down, but changed mind at last minute and never once remotely regretted it (except perhaps the week before finals!). There is time for having fun as well as working hard and Oxford is a rather wonderful place to be once you get used to it. As it happens my brother went to Bristol, and I don't think had as good a time. One of my dc graduated from Oxford more recently and also loved it. Found the work hard, but still managed a first, a blue, other college sports, music, college politics, falling in love, balls...
Obviously it doesn't suit everyone but I'd recommend thinking very hard before turning it down.

My ds has the potential to go to Oxford according to his sixth form. He's looked at the courses on offer and doesn't like the look of it, of course I'd be pleased if he did like it and go but he says it's not the right course when compared to Durham and Bristol so that's the end of that, they have to make a choice that they are happy with.

befelino you're quite right to make this your child's decision and support them whatever they decide. However I'd also suggest that she goes to see for herself. She may be worried about being able to keep up as a lot of students worry about whether they should really be there. There is a lot of support available if students feel they are struggling but the brightest and best at school are not necessarily the ones who thrive at university. Some students peak early, others continue to develop.

My child, who is at Cambridge, had doubts about the course. They went to stay with a friend, attended a lecture or two, was pleased to understand some of it and decided to go. They certainly don't work all the time and seem to be having the time of their life. The tutorial system probably keeps them from slacking too much but they have had time, and opportunity, to take up other interests. Look at the lists of clubs on the college websites, they are there because students are participating in these activities. They also have meals out, go for cocktails, to clubs, watch dvds, play games with their friends and generally enjoy life. The May balls are something else.

It's also still true that being at Oxbridge will still open some extra doors. My relatives who went to Oxford recently tell me a history student doesn't have to pay for lunches in the second year because they are wined and dined by law firms almost as much as the law students. For an arts subject there is perhaps more difference between Oxbridge and elsewhere than for science.

Having said that some do struggle and a couple of my child's friends have needed counselling to cope with the stress. If you have a kind hearted child this can put extra pressure on them (from trying to support their friends). Exams terms are very intense and in small colleges it can be difficult to escape the pressure. If they go encourage them to get involved in something outside the university bubble.

For an arts subject there is perhaps more difference between Oxbridge and elsewhere than for science.

No, Oxbridge goes at very different pace/depth in (at least some) sciences than their top competitors, and this affects subsequent careers/entry to research.

I went to Cambridge, albeit some time ago. It was a LOT more work than other unis, I was always shocked visiting friends at how little they had to do compared to me. I didn't work hard enough in my final year and regret that now - it was only a year and I just missed out on a first because I prioritised social life over studying
Even though I enjoyed bits of Cambridge, I've often thought I'd have enjoyed my second choice, Edinburgh, more as I am a big city person, the town didn't suit me that well. But Oxford is much bigger than Cambridge,
BUT there is no doubt being at Cambridge opened career doors for me, 20 years later I'm only just beginning to realise how much it helped. I also had an amazing peer group from every conceivable background and even people i wasn't great friends with then have popped up later in life and been either helpful from a work pov or just great, stimulating company.
So, I think your dd should go for it

My daughter had an offer from Cambridge. She'd been ambivalent about applying and hadn't especially taken to the place when she was interviewed. She was surprised to get an offer - and pleased - perhaps because she'd not thought the interview had gone at all well. I congratulated her and hugged her. But as soon as I'd said, 'Well done.' I said. 'You don't have to accept the place.'

After that I really avoided saying anything. I just felt it was her responsibility to choose. Lots of other people gave her feedback of course.

She was perhaps more attracted by London, where lots of her friends were going.

Again I didn't say much about London either. (I had quite strong views about both places. I knew the experiences would be different.)

She chose to firm Cambridge, and is happy there. It turned out to be a bit different than she'd expected. (People very friendly.) The lack of decent nightclubs is something she can cope with.