Turning down Oxford offer

[bevelino]

My dd has announced tonight she wants to turn down her Oxford place for Bristol or Edinburgh. She has friends who are studying at Oxford saying repeatedly how hard it is compared to their friends elsewhere. While dd says she will work hard wherever she ends up, she says she wants to live a little and have fun. Dd is at a highly academic school, where A* and A at GCSE and A'level is the norm. I just want her to be happy.

The only experience I have of Oxbridge graduates is at work where we recruit lots of grads from Oxford and Cambridge and I supervise them. In reality they don't perform any better under our graduate training programme than other RG students.

My question is shall I say nothing or encourage her to firm Oxford which I know I could do as all she wants to do is to make me and dh proud?

Something is most definitely amiss in the grading at Bristol. My DSS1 gets ridiculous marks in exams (> 90%). When I was at university such high marks didn't happen. DSS2, at UCL, was shocked when he found out how much lower a percentage of the cohort got a First in their degree than did at Bristol.

Bristol has quite an odd approach to contextualisation. DS found if off putting that he was expected to achieve the standard offer (A*AA) whilst the contextual offer was (AAB). No problem if there were arrangements in hand to help bring contextual students up to speed quickly, but less appealing if the approach was that all students would be expected to start at a lower level (grade B) in maths.

Since then I have found this www.bristol.ac.uk/media-library/sites/study/undergraduate/documents/contextual-offer-schools-2016.pdf

Its very bizarre. Portland Place School which is a perfectly alright, if less selective, Central London Private School is on the list, but not Lilian Bayliss, a genuinely inner city comp with high levels of deprivation (94.1% of pupils on FSM) Please tell me that contextualisation does not mean a Lilian Baylis pupil is not expected to outperform one from Portland Place.

And Bobo, you are right. Very few 90%s at LSE, if any. Even in maths courses which can normally be expected to have a wider distribution.

I have been told that the Bristol economics course is maths light compared to LSE or UCL or Warwick or Cambridge economics courses. It might be easier to achieve higher marks when the course content is less taxing.

Our DD went to Oxford and it was a big mistake . She went for the wrong reasons and it wasnt a good fit for her personality / learning style . She enjoyed the social life ( far too much ) and came out with a mediocre degree although she's doing ok in her career.

I don't think she worked many harder than our other children and their friends who have gone to good RG unis. It's just more intense as its 24 weeks rather not than 30. Also I suspect that she left most of her revision until the end of third year because there were no exams after the Easter of first year .

She would have been much better suited to Edinburgh or Bristol. She probably have got a better degree as she would have worked harder ( different course structure and teaching style ) and she would certainly have had more fun .

As others have said, she found it rather provincial and her classmates boring. I'm sure this says as much about her as is does about them .

samantha you've lost me.

Your DD socialised too much yet she found her peers boring?

And you would have like her to have more fun elsewhere even though her social life got in the way of work?

.

Yes she partied too much and went up to London instead of studying , because she missed city life .

She would have had more fun ie had a better experience elsewhere because Oxford wasn't a good fit for her .

She wasnt engaged with her class mates or her course so she didn't work as hard as she could .

I'm sorry if you find it confusing Eric .

And I didn't say that " would have like her to have more fun elsewhere" .

Now I understand.

BoboChic

I'm don't know what subject your DSS's are doing but I wonder whether they have the full facts about the classifications of degrees awarded at each Uni.

I looked at UCL and Bristol on Unistats LINK HERE and looked at, as examples, Bsc (hons) chemistry and Bsc [hons] computer science and for both degrees UCL award far more 1st class degrees than University of Bristol. I've attached a screen shot. UCL award 35% 1st class degrees for Chem compared with only 25% at Bristol. The difference for computer science is even greater with UCL awarding twice the % of 1st class degrees (20%) compared with Bristol (10%)

Its also interesting to look at the average UCAS tarrif scores of the students on these courses. There is nothing that suggests that Bristol is letting thickies in . In fact for Bsc (Hons) Chem it shows that the bottom third of Students at UCL have an average UCAS tariffs lower than the bottom third at Bristol which is not surprise as UCL has lower entry requirements.

I understand that this doesn't mean that the same pattern follows with other degrees at Bristol but it's a telling snapshot.

I know Unistats aren't perfect but they are probably more reliable than other sources of info.

(Sorry for typos)

But UCL v Bristol is very subject dependent.

BTW UCL for some subjects also has a reputation of giving out a lot of firsts - around 60% in maths, according to Unistats. UCL does take very strong maths students, but 60% is much larger than the percentage of firsts given out by Oxbridge maths (whose entry tariff is even higher). For comparison, Imperial gives out about 40% firsts in maths.

And 95% of physics students at UCL get either a first or a 2:i with 65% getting firsts!

Disquitous
But UCL v Bristol is very subject dependent.

Of course,I thought I'd made that clear.

disquisitiones sorry about misspelling your name

boboChic BTW the percentage of Bsc Hons Economics students getting 1st's UCL and Bristol is currently listed as identical (30%) on Unistats. Are these the courses your DSS2 was talking about?

What subject are her friends doing?

Is it the same as her subject?

I studied science at Cambridge (heavy load of lectures and labs) and did not feel overworked or pressured.

"I don't want to feel overworked and stressed" is a valid reason to choose a different university, but find out first if that is actually likely to be a problem.

Tutorial requirements (ie a weekly essay or two) obviously create a certain pressure. On the other hand they help to keep students on the straight and narrow. It's far easier to hide in large group seminars and to wing it on the work front with no-one noticing until it's too late. So the sustained pressure can be very positive for certain types of student who might otherwise let things slide.

This is largely why I really hoped my dd1 would get in to Oxford! If you're going to be near the bottom of your cohort, it's best that it's a high-achieving cohort Plus also the tutorial system was clearly perfect for her.

Dd2 didn't apply to Oxbridge in the end for course reasons, but isn't like that at all, will always push herself regardless of her peers/classmates. However, she's hopefully going to either Bristol or Newcastle for MFL and does want to be among people who work hard and want to be there - I suggested she subtly ask other attendees at her offer holder days what their predicted grades are ...

My DD graduated from Cambridge in 2015. She loved her time there, made life long friends and became involved in other activities as well as work. However she says the work load was huge, particularly compared to friends at other unis. I think they deal with it by either working or partying, with no time to 'do nothing' ( which I seem to remember was what most of us did when I was at uni in the early 80s). Apparently this is why companies like employing Oxbridge grads, and my DD has started at a very good grad job.

Furthermore I think it is the tutorial system that makes all the difference. At her graduation, the tutors were there hugging and celebrating with the students. Students at other unis say they are completely anonymous in huge lecture halls with no one knowing or caring who they are.

So should your DD take her place at Oxford? She may really regret it if she doesn't grab this unique opportunity.

Op, my DD turned down her interview at Oxford. She had already an offer from a university she preferred. The course at Oxford was a lot more theoretical and without a year in industry. She also didn't fancy the short intense terms. I didn't want her to apply in the first place as I didn't think it was a good fit - she doesn't thrive from being under pressure, can get stressed and is quite lazy. Once she had passed the admissions test and been offered an interview, I did encourage her to accept the interview as I thought she must have been interested to apply. But part of the reason she applied was because school had encouraged her to. One of the senior teachers at school did talk to her after hearing she was turning down the interview and said they thought she would regret it! She won't - course not what she wanted, long way from home (DD very much a home bird) and DD would have probably ended up very stressed there. It was DD's decision as it should be.

Yes Atia I had two of mine very much in mind when I made the comment about straight and narrow! The one who's graduated is now much less of a slider - a real transformation.

The school is almost bound to encourage the DD to go. Not necessarily at all because of the PR for the school in getting a good Oxbridge tally, but because there's no doubt that it will be a significant opportunity missed, even if she has good reasons for not wanting to go. I don't think all schools are completely cynical.

If she comes out from the meeting still wobbly but having agreed to sign up, then please reassure her that there are a good handful of MNers with DC who've read history recently or who are doing it now and they're saying loud and clear that the course is manageable and that there's plenty of time for life with all the parties and other stuff that the DD might choose. The whole thing about 'no life' isn't true, not for history. If she goes elsewhere for 'a life' she might find it a massive anti climax in any event whereas if she goes to Oxford expecting no life, but finds there is one and a very good one too, then her expectations will have been vastly exceeded. She also doesn't need that A* so can relax a bit now and she won't get second year exams (as she would at Bristol) to mess up the summer of 2018!

Hellsbells, thank you for your comments. Dh and I will support dd in her decision as we believe that it is hers to make. Dd has triplet sisters, who are 18 months younger and they have had plenty to say to her on the matter.

Is it really a case of "cosy tutorials with fascinating discussions over cups of tea with brilliant and eccentric professor" at Oxbridge, or "giant anonymous lecture hall, no supervision and essays occasionally marked by unenthusiastic phd student" anywhere else?

Back in my day at (in new money) RG university, there were quite large lecture theatres, some lively tutorials, other deadly tutorials and some enthusiastic supervision and some of the very hands-off, can't be bothered variety.

I don't want ds burdening himself with £50K of debt for a substandard experience. Is there a special university for Oxbridge near-misses with a mixture of the above? Ds says he would be very cheesed off indeed to end up at a university with, er, not great peers. It's ok at school - that's free! - but to pay through the nose for it would be galling.

What a choice ?

Can she go and stay with some of her overworked friends at Oxford and see what the reality is. Turning down Oxford is fine - but she should know what she is turning down, rather than rely on hearsay. And then with some at Bristol or Edinburgh.

My dd is in her first term at Oxford and is finding it hard work, but so far challenging hard work in an an environment she loves where everyone else is working hard as well.

This is (at the moment) totally compensated for by her very supportive college and peers, and by the enormous number of things she is doing on top of work. She is having a brilliant time and couldn't wait to go back this term.

I do see that it isn't this way for everyone. But I just wanted to show that it isn't necessarily all work.

If she has already been to a very academic school and been the sort of girl who does a lot as well as her normal academic work she will probably find the work OK. It is clearly the sort of place where you have to sort out your time management if you want to do a lot.

My dd isn't finding it provincial - and she comes from the Central London. She is instead finding it accessible and fun. In a way the size of the city allows her to do all the things she wants to fit in.

She is only one term in, so I can't comment on her long term happiness, but right now the college system works for her supportively, administratively (gets fed regularly and cheaply!), financially, and socially and the tutorial system keeps a naturally lazy girl who wants to cram everything else in on her toes.

Ask your daughter to not dismiss it out of hand, and to not dismiss it from hearsay, but to go and have a look during term time, and then choose one of the others if she still likes it better. She has time before she has to decide. Choosing between Oxford, Bristol and Edinburgh is incredibly luxurious.

Ask her to look at it all properly. And then support whatever choice she makes, as surely there is no wrong choice with this selection. And then don't look back !

Back in my day at (in new money) RG university, there were quite large lecture theatres, some lively tutorials, other deadly tutorials and some enthusiastic supervision and some of the very hands-off, can't be bothered variety

I had exactly the same experience at a ( very old money ) RG uni. We had four tutorials a week and most of the tutors took a personal interest in the students .

Is there a special university for Oxbridge near-misses with a mixture of the above? wink Ds says he would be very cheesed off indeed to end up at a university with, er, not great peers

Ah, the arrogance of youth ! It's hard not to think like this , if you went to a poor school and you see yourself as the clever one in the class. If your son takes the time to research the best institutions for his subject, I think he will find somewhere special enough for him . Very few good universities find themselves unable to provide sufficient intellectual challenge for a first year undergraduate .

Rhoda's son sounds very clever in absolute terms, not relative, Samantha.

Triplet sisters eighteen months younger . Four girls in eighteen months . Do the triplets say the same thing bevelino or is opinion divided? Does she take notice of what they say or tend to do the reverse?

Is it really a case of "cosy tutorials with fascinating discussions over cups of tea with brilliant and eccentric professor" at Oxbridge, or "giant anonymous lecture hall, no supervision and essays occasionally marked by unenthusiastic phd student" anywhere else?

My 4 DC are at RG Unis and all seem to know and really like a lot of their lecturers. They all have personal tutors. One of my DC was struggling with a health issue and his tutors were great. They were kind and helpful. I suspect at non Oxbridge Unis the student has to be keen to forge relationships between their tutors whereas at Oxbridge it's a given. ( I could be talking crap though )

If you look at Unistats student satisfaction rankings there are a lot of lower tariff Unis that rank very highly for things like feedback, how interesting the lecturers are and how much advice and support students feel they get.

My friends DC gave up Her place at Oxford last year about a term and a half in. She is a super bright girl (4 x A* etc) but was unlucky with her college and course mates. She liked the subject but the intensity and lack of friends was too much for her and she didn't find her tutors sympathetic. I'm sure the next student would have had the opposite 'experience' but that was hers.

Your DC have to work out what suits them.

Rhoda, if you look at the subject in the Complete University Guide and then filter by entry standards you get a quick view of the level of qualificaitons for students entering the course. Its is also a quick way of seeing how competitive the course is, as the top 3-5 will often have entry standards some way beyond the stated A level requirements, suggesting that they are rejecting some applicants who meet standards.

In general London (normally UCL/Imperial/LSE though some departments elsewhere) will offer a parallel academic experience though very different both in terms of teaching and student experience. It suits some students better and there will be at minimum a large and motivated overseas contingent.

Looking this will will also suggest other Universities. So Warwick for maths or economics and so on. And then a case of visiting and working out what appeals most. To some extent the experience you get will depend on what you put in. So somewhere that appears anonymous will not be if you put yourself forward and take part in optional activites. So attend lectures by visiting lecturers, get involved in the subject society, perhaps group together to undertake a voluntary research project, or offer to do some legwork for a PhD student. Staff at Universities which have a reputation for being remote can be very encouraging to students who make that bit of extra effort.

It might also be worth looking and the proportion of post-grads in the department. The more they are the more research orientated the University is likely to be.