Turning down Oxford offer

[bevelino]

My dd has announced tonight she wants to turn down her Oxford place for Bristol or Edinburgh. She has friends who are studying at Oxford saying repeatedly how hard it is compared to their friends elsewhere. While dd says she will work hard wherever she ends up, she says she wants to live a little and have fun. Dd is at a highly academic school, where A* and A at GCSE and A'level is the norm. I just want her to be happy.

The only experience I have of Oxbridge graduates is at work where we recruit lots of grads from Oxford and Cambridge and I supervise them. In reality they don't perform any better under our graduate training programme than other RG students.

My question is shall I say nothing or encourage her to firm Oxford which I know I could do as all she wants to do is to make me and dh proud?

Obviously your dd needs to make her own decision as it is her happiness that is at stake but she shouldn't make the decision under the supposition that she won't have fun at Oxford. My dd has just gone back to Cambridge for her second term (studying English) and having gone to York myself, I can see how much more she has to work at Cambridge than I ever did. However, she is having the time of her life - I guess it is a case of work hard, play hard.They have an amazing social life with so many interesting things going on (plays; talks; formals; nights in the bar). Not saying it will be the same for your dd but just want her to realise that Oxbridge can be a lot of fun as well as a lot of work!

The girl next door studied at Oxford - the pressure was awful and she was so stressed she came home and slept none stop for weeks - she swapped to Bristol and seems much happier.

Oxford isn't for everyone and at her age I'd let her make her own choices as she is the one living with them.

I turned down Cambridge for Imperial. Course at Imperial was far superior - more labwork from day one, more in depth study as well. I went on to teach my subject at Cambridge and wasn't blown away by the quality of the course compared to Imperial. I'd let her go where she wants tbh.

Don't underestimate the influence of the towns as well - I know Oxford is bigger than Cambridge, but they are both quite provincial compared to a proper city like Edinburgh!

If she doesn't firm Oxford her school won't be pleased and she is worried about that.

Don't worry about that. They want to be able to boast about kids getting to Oxbridge is all.

The are very few notes of caution being struck on this thread. I'm wondering too why the thousands of miserable, overworked, stressed out students don't leave Oxford in their droves for sunnier climes.

OP as far as your DD goes is there anything more in the equation? Did she get re-allocated pre-interview or pooled to a college that she didn't much like, or was the college her first choice college and had she given it some thought? Does she have a tendency to overwork or get stressed and has the emphasis on that by others worried her?

Decorhate makes a fair point but I have a feeling her DD's boyfriend may be a medic and most undergrads seem to agree that medics have an unusual workload - history is very different and far more self-regulated. That said, DS1 who is reading medicine nevertheless managed a whole raft of extra curricular stuff and a very good social life indeed and still got awarded a scholarship and stayed high in the medical rankings. Plenty of his peers managed just fine. The DC who read other subjects history and law) have all worked hard but they also had a great deal of fun and played for university or college teams, got elected to posts in societies etc. Of course people have problems but that's at least as much to do with the type of high achiever that gets into Oxford as the pressure imposed once there. Students in other universities struggle with mental health issues too, but fewer are likely to be pre-disposed in the same proportion. The college system helps enormously if there are problems - it's far less easy for problems to pass unnoticed. think I'd worry if a DC was starting a course unwell, but not otherwise.

Obviously her choice completely and the school is an irrelevance but I'd try to get underneath the issue to the core and find out exactly what it is she's deterred by and whether it's fact or fiction. IME some students seriously overplay the hard work line: especially in a humanities subject you can make as much or as little of it as you want - there are plenty of coasters (according to DS2 last week), who are just doing enough to hook over the 2.1 line, and beyond that 'having a whale' (the whale incentive is the one most often deployed to big up other unis).

Our NDN's DS is a history academic at Bristol and rates it very highly indeed :)

Good luck to your DD with her decision.

I turned down an unconditional offer from Oxford for another RG Uni and didn't regret a second.

Your DD is perfectly capable of making up her own mind and it's one of the first big life choices you get to make. I suggest you let her decide and then just support her decision telling her you are proud whatever way she chooses to go

If she doesn't firm Oxford her school won't be pleased and she is worried about that.

But not as much as she's worried about your approval

Able young people have to develop the confidence to politely resist other people's ambitions for them at some point because other people will have ambitions for talented students. Now is as good a time as any. She'll be fine with your support.

I'm on the fence here.

My son graduated from Oxford in History last year and had a fantastic time. He did work very hard but had plenty of time for socialising and other interests too. Having said that, he copes very well with pressure, is excellent at time management and has (thank god) not inherited the procrastination gene from his mother. If any of those had not applied, I can see it would have been a more mixed experience.

In his case, belonging to a college was a huge plus point. It seems to have made it a lot easier to get to know people and make friends. His college was very friendly and had a good mix of students.The pastoral support was very good - this may vary from college to college, but his college seemed to have a very good system. The accommodation was fine and the costs of studying a lot less than many other universities (short terms, subsidised food, no travel costs while in Oxford because everything was walking distance, accomm. costs lower than average for universities, fabulous library provision, which meant he scarcely had to buy any books).

He also got on well with the tutorial system, which is absolutely crucial - if you don't like the idea of weekly tutorials with only one or two other students, Oxford and Cambridge are not the places for you!

On the other hand, I had an offer from Cambridge a million years ago and would have gone there if I'd got the A level grades. I am so glad I didn't, though! My insurance offer was 2 Es from UCL (those were the days! late 70s, wouldn't happen now) and I loved, loved, loved UCL from the moment I stepped through the gates. I distinctly remember thinking that if I hadn't applied to Cambridge I would definitely have accepted UCL but I should stick with Cambridge because it was, well, Cambridge. I did like it and I'm sure I'd have enjoyed going there, but I hadn't fallen in love with it as I did UCL.

So it all turned out for the best for me because I did end up at UCL and I was very, very happy there - the course was great and I liked living in London that I've never left. I think I might have found living in a small university town a bit claustrophobic.

Good luck with the decision! She could always firm Bristol and have Oxford as her insurance - a luxurious position to be in!

Getting an offer is reason enough to be proud - she will do best where she is happiest.

School are thinking of no-one but themselves - Oxford will still be around when she graduates so she can apply for a Masters if she wants.

Completely agree with Molio about Oxbridge pressure being self-imposed.

My experience of Oxbridge is dated (although if DS makes his offer I'll get more recent insight) but I think A levels were the hardest part of the whole process. Once I got to university, I did enough to keep my supervisors happy and satisfy my own interests, and then enjoyed myself the rest of the time. (I finished missing a first by a whisker, which is slightly irritating!) I think we did work harder than people at other universities but that was partly due to the short terms, and having the long holidays was amazing - lots of time to travel or top up the finances. I loved it, essay crises and all (they were caused by my procrastination, by the way - not the course).

Basically, once I got in, I knew I would have to do pretty much no work at all for them to throw me out, and since I wasn't looking for a first and a highly competitive career, I just let myself enjoy my subject.

Of course your DD shouldn't go if she doesn't want to, but make sure she has talked to a number of current students about what it is really like before she turns it down.

She has a good while before she actually has to decide so, if you think she is unsure then suggest she waits before pressing her UCAS buttons. It sounds like she is sure though.

My best friend turned Cambridge down in favour of Manchester...

Her reasonings:

Cost (Manchester meant she could stay at home)
Better vibe from campus and lecturers.
She'd rather get a brilliant grade from a lower university than a good grade from a more elite one.

She's now on her second doctorate having stayed at Manchester for the last 12 years. Has more letters after her name than in it!

Encourage your Dd to go where she'd feel happy and she will always do well. And paying for fees and accommodation if you're going to end up owing money on it it at least its better to not regret or resent where you end up.

Why the change of heart OP?

She must have been fairly sold on the idea to go through the Hoo-ha of applying, taking the pre test and attending interviews no? These aren't things that require no thought or effort.

Or has she felt under pressure to undertake this process from the get go?

In terms of studying at Oxford, yes it's more intense than elsewhere (which is one of the reasons why the history department is so well regarded world wide).

But the university is a hive of other activities so clearly students have time on their hands! And the bars are full .

Gasp0de DS3 firmed Oxford last year and insured with Bristol. Bristol notified him on results day that they'd take him, if he didn't go to Oxford. I think that's the safer way around (forget the grades - DS3 had an A*AA offer from Bristol too). Oxford would never insist on a student coming if they'd said they'd changed their mind whereas Bristol might be more reluctant to release a student if they got the grades.

I think it very much depends on your DD's personality, DD has done a term at Cambridge and was exhausted but had a ball with a huge amount of extra curricular activity. She is pretty good at getting down to work and getting essays done without too much prevarication and angst. She is not hugely competitive academically, so no need to be 'the best', I think the people who have always been the top at school sometimes struggle in a pool of clever, high achievers which adds to the stress.

She must have been fairly sold on the idea to go through the Hoo-ha of applying, taking the pre test and attending interviews no? These aren't things that require no thought or effort.

The "hoo-ha" does give quite an insight, though, especially the three day interview stay.

For a highly academic student, tipped by their school as 'Oxbridge material', applying is the path of least resistance. Refusing to apply can be a big additional struggle to take on in the middle of A levels.

I really like your pragmatic approach to the level of work required not to be chucked out LadyPeter

Yes reading LadyPeter's post, I definitely think DD is following your approach!

For a highly academic student, tipped by their school as 'Oxbridge material', applying is the path of least resistance. Refusing to apply can be a big additional struggle to take on in the middle of A levels.

This with bells on. I applied to Cambridge because I felt I had to and told them in the interview not to give me an offer because I didn't want to go there. I had a wonderful time at another RG uni.

I'm wondering about what you saw in your DD's mood after interview OP, given fidel1ne's point about the three day interview process. I remember you saying she was thrilled to get an interview invite but had her mood shifted by the time she came back after interview? That would give a clue to what's really going on, and whether it's a wobble about the college or pressure or whether she really genuinely didn't like the feel of the place.

I think you need to bear in mind that a lot of the "pressure" at Oxbridge is somewhat self-imposed.

I think perhaps people do tend to work harder, partly because they tend to be quite driven individuals themselves, and partly because they see everyone else working hard, so there is a bit of peer pressure there too.

Lots of people push themselves to the limit. But equally lots of people don't.

I wouldn't really say the pressure really comes from the tutors. If she has been given an offer, then in their eyes she is capable of managing the workload and enjoying the experience of university. (And of course people already at Oxbridge are going to "stealth boast" a bit about how hard the work is. Most of them will be saying it quite cheerfully, just for effect, and they will actually be coping fine, and in the college bar every evening!)

There is plenty of time for socializing, and whatever else you want to do.

Having said that, gut feeling is important. She needs to choose the place she can envisage herself living for the next three years.

DH went to Cambridge and loved it and he didn't find it stressful at all. He was president of his college or whatever its called and was in both the hockey and rowing teams. His friend also on his level of braininess committed suicide in the lab using the substances he was experimenting on. My friend dropped out of Oxford with a stomach ulcer and now works in a prison which is apparently less stressful. I had a great time at a RG University.

The best thing about your DD is she is showing maturity and that she can discuss this with you in a sensible manner which is great.

cathyandclaire and molio - I very, very slightly regret missing out on the first - but I have lots of lovely memories.

I don't know if this is still true, but one thing that took the pressure off was that my essays during the term weren't graded, so I wasn't comparing myself to others or to my previous marks. It wasn't until the exams at the end of the first year that I realised that I was a solid 2:1.

Something else that took the pressure off was being part of a college - mine was largish but friendly. And don't underestimate the benefit it is to have accommodation sorted out for all three years and meals provided if you want them. And I think it is a cheaper option than lots of other universities because so much is subsidised. Oxbridge is set up so that you can concentrate on the work, and all the fun stuff.

My two bits worth. Of course whatever choice she makes will be fine in the end.

I think she would be silly to turn it down on the basis that she will have to work harder. If it's for a different reason, ie she prefers the courses elsewhere then that's different.
Whether it's fair or not, on pxbridge education opens doors. I know because I am one and ive been astonished at what's available to me just for that reason.

also I had a brilliant social life at ox.