Turning down Oxford offer

[bevelino]

My dd has announced tonight she wants to turn down her Oxford place for Bristol or Edinburgh. She has friends who are studying at Oxford saying repeatedly how hard it is compared to their friends elsewhere. While dd says she will work hard wherever she ends up, she says she wants to live a little and have fun. Dd is at a highly academic school, where A* and A at GCSE and A'level is the norm. I just want her to be happy.

The only experience I have of Oxbridge graduates is at work where we recruit lots of grads from Oxford and Cambridge and I supervise them. In reality they don't perform any better under our graduate training programme than other RG students.

My question is shall I say nothing or encourage her to firm Oxford which I know I could do as all she wants to do is to make me and dh proud?

And what Ineedacheeseslicer said.

I don't think the interview process gives a very realistic feel of how Oxford is, day to day.

Most students have gone home! The only staff visibly around are involved in admissions and bloody knackered. The applicants are nervous and/or focused.

It's not indicative of what happens on a bog standard day.

I turned down Cambridge to go to Bristol. Of all the decisions I've made, it's the one I regret the least. Cambridge would not have been the right place for me.

Interesting that there are so many posters who turned down an offer, when statistically that's rare!

We have the odd ones who are juggling Oxford/Ivy and go fur the later, but students choosing other UK universities are pretty unusual.

*If she doesn't firm Oxford her school won't be pleased and she is worried about that.

Don't worry about that. They want to be able to boast about kids getting to Oxbridge is all.*

This is exactly what I was coming on to say. Her school teachers are not the ones that have to study and live there for the next 3-4 years. Talk through the pro and cons of each option with her and then go with her decision.

I think it is true that the pace and workload at Oxbridge are higher in my subject relative to other UK universities but this also gives Oxbridge graduates an enormous advantage later: they get used to absorbing a large amount of material in a short space of time, prioritising their time and working efficiently. As many PPs have said, Oxbridge students spend a lot of time having fun and doing extra-curriculars!

There's nothing wrong with choosing another university, but choosing for reasons based on hearsay doesn't seem wise.

I would also reinforce what PPs have said about a lot of pressure being self-inflicted and add that for students going to all universities the step up from A level to university work can be a shock. I keep having conversations with my first years, in which they complain that they are having to work at least 10 hours per week outside lectures and I have to remind them that a normal adult working week is 35 hours, so if they are only working 10 hours per week outside lectures they aren't doing 35 hours! They were just not prepared for the jump in study time relative to sixth form...

OP DD's friends at other universities may not have been feeling the pressure and step up from school quite so much, without weekly one-on-one tutorials, but I'll bet they are feeling it right now, as many of them will be doing first semester exams....

Eric obviously it's an artificial few days but it would be more indicative of a real hesitancy about the place if she had looked forward to the interview but had come back deflated and with a loss of interest in going. If the change of heart seems sudden since receiving her offer, she's more likely to be rattled by hearsay. She needs to not go for the right reasons and working out what the reasons are is crucial so she doesn't regret her decision, whatever that is, later on.

Yes to the poster who said she is trying to tell you something, so listen!

I remember spending an evening in tears once about how I didn't want to stay at my small girls school 6th form. But I ended up there - at 16 I did know what I wanted, but I didn't feel confident enough to push my view over my parents. And it was dull dull dull, and a bit rubbish too I think.

She is old enough to make this decision herself, and then at the very least she will have responsibility for it if it is the wrong one, although hopefully she is smart enough to know herself and what she wants.

BTW I should have written above that a normal adult working week is at least 35 hours... if only I worked only 35 hours!

Are they that rare? I know someone who turned down Oxbridge last year (or was it the year before?). It was mostly due to silly inverted snobbery on their part but also a sensible recognition that they were likely to suffer from self-imposed work stress.

Does OP's DD know what she wants to do after University; that might help clarify the decision-making. As said up-thread, if she thinks the Oxford cachet might be useful she can always go there for post-grad.

senua it is really rare for UK students not to take up offers in my subject.

And our drop out rate is exceptionally low.

I agree with trying to understand her real objection. If she genuinely feels she would not be happy there that is important - it's too long to spend somewhere where she genuinely wouldn't happy.

However, (vicarious experience here, DS, History) I too would be encouraging her to think very carefully if her reason is that you have to work harder at Oxford. My impression is it is just different. As I see it the terms are short so yes more intense and deadlines closer together, but from what I can see from DS and his friends there if you are reasonably organised you can accommodate that and do plenty of "fun stuff" as well.

If it is the work then I would also be encouraging her to think about the whole 3 years and not just Freshers Week / 1st term (if that is what her friends there are talking about.) I just don't believe that anyone at a good university who wants a good degree is not going to have to work really hard for that (LadyP obviously an honourable exception . ) There are lots of myths about Oxbridge and one of them (IMVH and possibly ill-informed O) is that it's all work, hugely stressful, and doesn't allow you to live a little.

That said if she is trying to articulate a vaguer gut feeling that she doesn't think she would be happy there - that's a little different.

I think it depends on the child. Has she got an offer from Oxford because she works really hard and has gone to a school which teaches children to play the game (in other words would be expected to get an upper second) or has she got an offer because she is really exceptionally intelligent, thinks outside the box (in other words might be expected to get a first). If the former she might be happier at another RG university, if the second she would probably thrive in the Oxford system.

Has she got an offer from Oxford because she works really hard and has gone to a school which teaches children to play the game (in other words would be expected to get an upper second) or has she got an offer because she is really exceptionally intelligent, thinks outside the box (in other words might be expected to get a first)

No 18 year old could make the judgement of where they would sit within the Oxford cohort. Neither could most teachers.

Nor are your criteria reliable: there are people who work really hard and think outside the box, while the notion of going to a school which "teaches children to play the game" is irrelevant. You don't get into Oxford for history from any school without being exceptionally intelligent and a deep thinker.

FWIW if you had asked me to judge where I would be in the Oxbridge cohort I would have assumed I would be in the low middle. This turned out to be very far from the truth.

Lots of people wobble at difficult times. I remember vividly having a couple of days in the run up to my first year exams convinced I was on the wrong course and should have done English. I got as far as going to the English departmental office and asking if it would be possible to transfer. Fortunately for me, the departmental secretary could not have been less encouraging so I went away and put that idea out of my mind. Around the same time I thought of dropping the whole thing and training as a midwife. Once I got down to my revision (at last) it all seemed far more manageable and everything was fine.

Bugger the school! That shouldn't come into it for her, but she sounds terribly sweet for thinking of it :-)

Personally I think (unduly) Oxbridge does open doors that other Unis don't. Even fantastic RGs. That's been my experience anyway. I was at Edin for undergrad and Oxford post-grad. I did notice a difference in the opportunities which came my way, and they seemed to be different from the opportunities coming the way of friends studying very similar courses at RGs.

So long as she understood that and felt the trade was worth it I'd make it her call. Whatever choice she makes she's done exceptionally well and will have a wonderful, well regarded education. Congratulations to you both!

Also to be fair to OPs DD this is a really grim time.

She's probably just done or about to do mocks, then looking down the barrel of 4 months hard revision.

It's easy to see why some young people fancy, what is sold to them, as party central, or don't fancy what is sold to them hard work/stress etc.

Well yes Eric except that the AAA offer from Oxford usually comes as quite an attractive relief, when others of similar profile are staring down a different barrel of an AAA offer from Bristol, Durham or UCL. That A requirement adds an immediate pressure which the DD here doesn't now have and which can act as a great inducement - so clearly there's quite a big reluctance going on here which may not be pressure related.

I think listen to her, definitely.

I don't know about Bristol (other than that it's really good) but I think she'd have a great time in Edinburgh. Beautiful city and it's a really excellent university.

And as a Glaswegian, it really hurt me to have to type that sentence.

Plus, if she goes to Edinburgh, she's close to the much better city of Glasgow. got my dig in,

I agree with others that she should look carefully at the reasons behind her reluctance and if clear she does not want to go, she should stick to her guns. Oxbridge appears to be a fantastic experience for most, but not for all. DH went, I did not apply (though have better A levels than DH.) He was slightly disappointed neither of ours will have the experience he did. I was much more neutral and think that as long as they are on the fright course in a place they like they are/will have a great if different experience elsewhere.

Amongst DS' peer group (second year) we are aware of two who dropped out of their courses, and a couple of others that admit to being disappointed. Our neighbour's son now works at UCL and thinks in retrospect he would have been happier there than Oxford, and we have heard similar from others.

I also suspect the first term is the hardest. The workload will be far higher than at school and it can take a while to find your place. DS' friends seemed to return to London a lot in their first term, but far less since.

Reasons why some appear unhappy:

1. The tutorial system. Great if you get on with your tutor, not so great if your tutor is disengaged. Then it can be a lot of self-directed study with few reference points of how you are getting on.

1. The course. The silver lining for DS and several of his friends not getting places, was that courses elsewhere appealed more. History is an obvious one as course contents and emphasis can vary a lot, but also subjects like engineering and NATSci, where Imperial tends to offer more specialist courses. New subjects can be a problem. DH did not enjoy the philosophy part of PPE, whilst others may find law dull, or economics too mathematical.

1. The competition. This is the big advantage of Oxbridge. Lots of very clever peers. Yet for some, perhaps used to being top of the form elsewhere, it can create unwelcome stress. Some also prefer being towards the top of a year group with that bit of headroom rather than forever running to keep up.

1. The social life. Initial impressions, including interview might be daunting. The same can happen in London at 11+. The very visible girls at DDs secondary went to the same posh London preps, were very confident and seemed to all know each other. It took a term or so for others to find each other and realise they were the majority. If either DC had gone to Oxbridge they would have been one Facebook friend away from a large number of their peers. It would not have meant, though in some cases it will, that they did not want to meet new people from different backgrounds.

1. As said above some find both Oxford and Cambridge provincial. (And one friend has suggested that she found many of her peers at Cambridge overly swotty and rather dull!)

1. The shorter terms. Not only does DS (in London) have 30 weeks rather than 24, but it is divided so that you get a long autumn term and a shorter summer (exam) term. No mid-term study weeks either. He is on the sort of course where you have to put time in before and after a lecture to keep up (a lot more than 35 hours a week though presumably not all do it). Other things being equal, more teaching weeks has to be better. One issue that affected an overseas friend of DS is that colleges empty over Christmas and Easter. This does not happen in London.

1. The workload. I don't know about humanities, but Oxbridge scientists, medics and lawyers have suggested the pace is pretty tough. And these will be kids who had already taken 4 if not 5 A levels. Some cope and have the capacity to engage fully in University life, others cope but no more.

That said both Oxford and Cambridge are stunningly beautiful, and for an engaged student it is a fantastic change to be surrounded by very bright and interesting peers, with the chance of some first class teaching. Tales of students elsewhere suggest that this is not always the case.

Good luck.

fright course?

OP your DD sounds as though she might not super confident by nature, or perhaps that's just me reading too much into her wanting you to stay nearby during the interviews. But might the problem be that she thinks she'll be mid/ low range once there? That seems to be a very common fear to the extent that a lot of freshers wonder if there's been a mistake.

She doesn't have to make the final decision for ages yet .I would encourage her to put it to the back of her mind , focus on the A levels for a bit , avoiding colds , ear infections, etc etc and all the other trials of year 13 and enjoy spending her last full term at school .In other words take a complete break from the rollercoaster of the application process .May be take a day or two at Easter to visit the two preferred cilites again and make that decision calmly not in the heat of the last few weeks, she has got her offers she can park that as a concern for now ,

Oxbridge scientists, medics and lawyers have suggested the pace is pretty tough.

That's true for any RG university. Dh and I were comparing our physics degrees (Oxford for him, RG for me) and there were very few differences in content.

PurpleDaisies exactly. Which is why DS is glad to have 10 week terms to cover the same content.

Rereading my post sounds a bit negative. The point was that though most people enjoy Oxbridge, some don't and there are often reason why they don't.