Despite having the right grades, my child is not applying to Oxbridge because ....

[TalkinPeace]

• she wants to live in self catered accommodation
• she does not like the small sizes of the colleges / social units
• having to go back to college for lunch while doing a lab based degree does not make sense
• the whole gown and formal dinner stuff smacks of coat tails rather than standing on own feet
• she does not fancy fighting through hordes of tourists while moving between buildings
• having a tutor picked by which college they are based in rather than their research specialism seems very odd to her

Also, for what she wants to do, the course at Oxford is not that well balanced
and Cambridge, despite having a fab course was not a place that felt like home when she visited for 2 days.

So she will be putting other Universities on her form and taking a great deal of stress out of this house.

For what its worth, those of her friends I've chatted to are also ruling out Oxbridge in favour of other Unis because of the first four points.

What are other people's reasons for ruling out Oxbridge, despite having the grades?

Your hobbies and interests are also important. A lot of people choose a university with a view to how well these will be catered for. Those who spend all their spare time sailing chose a University near the coast: the rock climbers often go to the north. If you are a keen climber it's a trek up from Oxford or Cambridge to the Peaks or the Lakes but from Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, they are on your doorstep.

I get the impression that the 'oxbridge' advantage when it comes to employment does vary with subject (does anywhere other than Oxford do PPE?). And if it's science (and maybe other fields), then you can join the club PhD or postdoc level.

Your DD might enjoy this, Talkin: I Spent Three Years at Cambridge University and It Made Me an Arrogant, Entitled Brat.

I guess I was daft to try to sound out why other people choose other than Oxbridge on a board that thinks that its Oxbridge or nothing.

And where most of those posting are Oxbridge people

so do not get that the colleges at Cambridge are tiny - Trinity has 671 undergrads .... that's under 250 per year group
which is a lot smaller than her Secondary school cohort, let alone 6th form college.

Ho hum.

Umm - may have been answered but:- she wants to live in self catered accommodation

• she does not like the small sizes of the colleges / social units

Some aren't that small, and lots of people are involved at college wide level. Most people mainly mixed intheir own hall of residence initially when I was a t a redbrick

• having to go back to college for lunch while doing a lab based degree does not make sense

You didn't have to go back to college for lunch when I was there. I did sometimes as it was close and cheaper than the sandwich shop.

• the whole gown and formal dinner stuff smacks of coat tails rather than standing on own feet

Plenty of formal dinners at other places (DJ still needed). But each to their own.

• she does not fancy fighting through hordes of tourists while moving between buildings

Okay. But actually only really an issue for postgrads, as there are lots more of them over the summer. They don't tend to go that close to the Labs either.

• having a tutor picked by which college they are based in rather than their research specialism seems very odd to her

She's lucky to get a tutor, and my one at a redbrick wasn't in an area I specialised in either.

Admittedly at least one of mine won't be applying either, probably but for reasons to do with the courses (and preferring the other Cambridge).

I don't think I agree that you can always join the club later for sciences. Maths and science students from Oxbridge cover a lot more material in more depth at undergraduate level than students at other universities. (A poster above said the opposite for chemistry but certainly for maths/physics third year Oxbridge material would often be Masters + at other places and colleagues tell me that this is the same for chemistry, biological sciences etc.)

An Oxbridge education is definitely an advantage in getting top PhD science positions (anywhere in the world) and succeeding in them. It's not because of the Oxbridge name; it's the actual education at Oxbridge that makes the difference.

Of course people with science degrees from other universities also go on to top careers in science but for at least some sciences Oxbridge undergraduate does genuinely offer more than other universities.

Why on earth would you need to sound out others? Why do you need reasons not to go somewhere? And why have you changed your tune so radically?

Good for her. That's exactly what I should have done and exactly the reasons why I found Oxford so difficult. (However there are more modern colleges – mine wasn't and I wished I'd known about that.)

However on the flip side, my Oxbridge degree definitely got me the foot in the door in my career – unfair as that is.

you sound as closed minded as she is, and determined to believe that her perceptions are true. With that mindset, you/she will probably find that they are. With a different attitude, you'd probably find a completely different set of people.

Lots of people have said there are plenty of worth alternatives - it's not Oxbridge or nothing. But what they've tried to point out, with the benefit of having experienced it - is that many of her objections don't actually make sense when compared with the reality.

The size of colleges really makes little difference. You socialise with people from many colleges, and many courses. It's quite nice having such varied social groups. Many hobbies are across the whole univeristy, or are duplicated at many colleges, and you can join them too - so you can often find a group at the right level, whether it's sports or music or whatever. And there is a great custom of doing extra curricular things - not pressured, but it's seen as a perfectly normal thing to be doing, involved into whatever societies you choose, however weird or nerdy they might seem.

I think it's actually easier to meet people with a collegiate system. Universities of 10,000 can make you feel overwhelmed and isolated (I had one of them too).

In contrast to that article linked above, I found that most students became very aware of their privelege, and somewhat uncomfortable with it, rather than assuming that they deserved it. Many very much appreciated the extras such as book grants and so on. And many people I know definitely did say that they couldn't afford things like balls, and/or worked their way to a ticket, without anyone batting an eyelid. I also know plenty of people at other universities who also had balls and events and formal dinners - they're just not portrayed the same way in the media all the time.

Focus on the course, and on the nice people doing the course because it's really what they are most interested in over anything else, and that's where you'll find the people that oxbridge is really most suited for.

"Yes Cambridge is a small city but what exactly is she missing? Miles of council estates? Due to the university it has facilities of a much bigger place."

I loved Cambridge (stayed for years after I graduated), but I come from a small village. TBH lots of people I knew moaned endlessly about the limited nightlife. That was a fair few years back, but it's never going to be the same as being in London or Manchester.

Re. science education - I think it really depends on your particular interest. I know DH regretted not having gone for his 2nd choice uni (Warwick) as there were better academics in his area of specialism. (Ironically it was my 2nd choice too, and their economics dept would also have suited my interests better . . . )

Umm one of my nieces did PPE at Manchester - and is doing pretty well now.

(I did mean University wide not just college wide - but I was Oxford not Cambridge which is a bit more insular).

Oh and I'd be very pleased if one of mine went anywhere for Uni.

I guess I was daft to try to sound out why other people choose other than Oxbridge on a board that thinks that its Oxbridge or nothing.

As has already been pointed out - you don't "choose" not to go until you're offered a place, achieve your offer grades and then choose to go elsewhere.

most of those posting are Oxbridge people ...

Well yes - the people who can best respond to the factual inaccuracies in your OP are those who have experience of the thing - surely?

so do not get that the colleges at Cambridge are tiny - Trinity has 671 undergrads .... that's under 250 per year group

You're either not listening or deliberately missing the point. No undergraduate is limited to their own college either socially or academically. You attend the university and are free to enjoy everything therein.

,Oxford and Cambridge are both medium sized universities by student numbers en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_enrollment

Also in answer to your question OP Murray Edwards has no charge for meals unless you eat them and has ovens, hobs, microwaves and fridges. I made my own bread and cooked roasts for 12 there...

But if your DD doesn't like them then there are lots of other great places to be.

As others have said, the rationale listed by the OP is inaccurate. I have a degree from Cambridge and none of these points are true. I'm not aware of any accommodation where you can't self-cater and there is absolutely no obligation to return to your college for lunch! I only wore a gown once in my whole Cambridge career - graduation day. There are indeed valid reasons for not wishing to go Oxbridge - but not those listed!

I guess I was daft to try to sound out why other people choose other than Oxbridge on a board that thinks that its Oxbridge or nothing.

I don't think this is what most people are writing. I can think of good reasons for not applying to (e.g.) Cambridge Nat Sci:

• Wanting to be in a large city rather than a small town in the fens
• Wanting to specialise immediately rather than doing several sciences
• Wanting to be assessed by coursework as well as by end of year exams
• Preferring a longer teaching term than the Cambridge 8 week terms
• Wanting to do an industrial placement year which Cambridge doesn't offer
• Not wanting the stress of applying when the success rate is relatively low. Generally to get a Bio Nat Sci interview you need an average of 90+% across four AS sciences, to get an offer you typically have even higher UMS, lots of people with 5As at AS don't get offers.
• Not wanting the stress of a typical Nat Sci AAA offer
• Wanting to be closer to home if the family home is a very long way from Cambridge

Etc etc

Declining to apply because of inaccurate perceptions about catering or formal halls seems a bit sad.

I do recall this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/2090421-Why-didnt-your-child-apply-to-Oxford-or-Cambridge

Which may contain more of the sort of answer you were looking for.

I think Oxbridge people are posting to try to debunk some myths!

(Yes, lots of places do PPE.)

How many of the 3000odd students at her 6th form college does she actually know though? There's a limit to how many people you can actually socialise with. At Oxbridge, you can be as insular or as gregarious as you like - I didn't know many people out of my college, but one of those was someone who became one of my best friends, and she knew people everywhere. I also knew by name everyone in my college, and I liked that

My dd is going to a college of about 400 (I think!). She will also meet others through her subject as they have classes at the faculty. She has a hobby that she will doubtless continue and will probably meet people from all over the university through that. And she has good friends going to other colleges, and I'm sure she'll visit them.

Your horizons can be as wide or narrow as you like. I'm sure there are people at other universities who only know those around them in halls and those that they have classes with - could easily be less than a couple of hundred.

But if she doesn't want to apply, she doesn't have to. I'm not sure why you posted - were you hoping for people to add to your list without discussing the reasons on it? (A vain hope on mn, where any tiny detail can be picked apart as if you're in an Oxford tutorial!)

I think people are only picking apart tiny details because so many had a really good experience at Oxbridge (despite being from a non-typical background) and would love others to have the same without being put off by so many of the myths and prejudices spread by the media.

I really liked that I was finally amongst loads of people who enjoyed learning and study, didn't think it geeky, had a whole variety of odd hobbies and interests, were passionate about all kinds of things, were interested in discussions about so many random topics. It wasn't seen as weird to do those things; in fact it was quite unremarkable to do many of the things that people had been 'known' for (in a good or bad way) at their secondary schools. For some, that led to feelings of inferiority; for others, it was like coming home.

And it would be a shame for people to miss out on that experience, which some really need after years of not quite fitting in at secondary school, because, ironically, of fears of not fitting in at Oxbridge! So I think people are just quite enthusiastic about making sure that people don't discount the possibilities of Oxbridge because of stereotypes and miss out on something that could be really good for them.

talkin, it sounds a bit as if you were hoping everyone to post 'OMG, SHE'S NOT GOING TO OXBRIDGE? Make her apply! Force her hand! The Master of Trinity himself will kiss her hand and beg her to remain!'

Now that most people have said variations on 'uh, fair enough but she's got a few misconceptions', you're claiming it's because everyone thinks Oxbridge is the be all and end all.

Unless you've also posted identical 'DD isn't applying to Manchester/Bristol/Harper Adams/Swansea' threads, I'd suggest the person with the Oxbridge bee in their bonnet might be you.

I guess she has ruled out Durham for all the same reasons?

Oh RunAway I didn't mean that this was a discussion of tiny details! I think this is important useful stuff that needs to be said, for the reasons you describe.

Just that mners could probably get 500 posts out of which way up to eat a boiled egg

I know. (and you're right about the boiled egg!). I just didn't want the OP to come back and dismiss things as people arguing about tiny details instead of the big points, because these are important things.

I find that some people can be almost reverse snobbish about it, and proud that their children aren't engaging with Oxbridge, won't have anything to do with it, are going to be independent and go against expectations, etc. Fine to follow your own path and find the course that is right for you, but just do it for valid reasons, rather than myths. Oxbridge is definitely not the be all and end all; it has a variety of problems and challenges; it is not all it is made out to be; it is not the best in every subject; it doesn't suit many people; etc etc. But it deserved to be judged on those merits.

And open days, in the summer out of term time, are probably a bad time to make judgements of it, as it's not representative of what it's like during term time.

My DD and her DH both graduated from Cambridge 3 years ago. They both self catered all the way through ( at totally different colleges) as did all their friends.
She Paid for some meals when wanted to, especially the formals, and only had to wear her gown at formals her college was 'up the hill' so her shopping was at Aldi, but they socialised in town at other college bars as well as their own at at the other hill colleges.

My DS did not apply to Oxbridge as he saw how much work his sister had to do :)

Jeanne
You misunderstand me utterly if you think I wanted that.
secret
yes, she ruled out Durham for that among other reasons.
runaway
it was not the open day - she was doing DofE so we could not go.

OK, I'll stand corrected that the impressions we got across 2 days and the information in the prospectus was distinctly misleading
and yes, she's borderline on the grades
BUT

I'd be more interested to know what those who had the grades and chose to apply elsewhere used as their rationale
rather than wall to wall Oxbridge fans.

Well, if she doesn't want to go to Oxford, then that is that.

She doesn't need to justify her reasons.

Did she assume she would get in?

She and you sounds a wee bit chippy.