Despite having the right grades, my child is not applying to Oxbridge because ....

[TalkinPeace]

• she wants to live in self catered accommodation
• she does not like the small sizes of the colleges / social units
• having to go back to college for lunch while doing a lab based degree does not make sense
• the whole gown and formal dinner stuff smacks of coat tails rather than standing on own feet
• she does not fancy fighting through hordes of tourists while moving between buildings
• having a tutor picked by which college they are based in rather than their research specialism seems very odd to her

Also, for what she wants to do, the course at Oxford is not that well balanced
and Cambridge, despite having a fab course was not a place that felt like home when she visited for 2 days.

So she will be putting other Universities on her form and taking a great deal of stress out of this house.

For what its worth, those of her friends I've chatted to are also ruling out Oxbridge in favour of other Unis because of the first four points.

What are other people's reasons for ruling out Oxbridge, despite having the grades?

I think sometimes people start with a negative oh I don't want that before they work out what exactly what they do want. Process of elimination if you like. Similar to oh no we've decided that we don't want the local school ( which we assumed we'd go to) so we start looking elsewhere. Decision. Making processes might vary between people so seem odd. Thousands of people applying matters not one jot. It's right for them but doesn't mean it would be right for everyone.

I thought the report by Sutton trust was interesting as it highlighted that Oxbridge or RG unis are not the be all and end all. I certainly felt we should concentrate more on what they are studying not so much where after reading it. After all, it may be that you have enough grades to study say a better degree at a lower ranked uni or a RG uni but a degree with less prospects?

In all sometimes it's a feeling you get when you look round a place. There are so many unis, we all hope that our offspring choose ones they are happy in even if it's the colour of the paint that makes them happy, I really don't mind! I didn't enjoy my uni experience and I did the right thing and went to a good one! I suppose that's what interests me most not the prospects career wise.

bono I read the thread more as an op that yes is reaching out for others in the same situation. Just because the data is supportive or other people are applying doesn't mean you should because you have the grades - it is irrelevant. I don't think it about saving face either for me. Some of us might have different wants or enjoy different things. As one who is used to going against the grain I have seen a lot of puzzled faces!

Thanks bobochic and alreadytaken It's a lot clearer now

I think OP's daughter may be good enough on paper but she is suffering (the DD, not the OP) from what a lot of state school educated kids suffer from when it comes to Oxford and Cambridge (the 'it's not for the likes of me' syndrome) and is trying to spin it in a way that suggests that her state school background has prepared her for a more discerning path through life than the private school elite who just can't think for themselves.

I think the fact the DD has clearly identified reasons not to apply to London universities as well as Oxbridge, while there is no mention of positives abut any other universities, is evidence of an overdeveloped tendency to baulk. I would be worried abut this no matter where she goes.

Lots of people choose by ruling out the absolutely nots first! Helps to narrow things down a bit. Especially if you can clarify why something is ruled out. Helps you rule out more and so on.

I think it enables a more positive choice from a smaller field.

We ruled out all London unis, helped narrow the field quickly.

I think it's quite a sensible approach actually from the op, after looking at what is on offer and making a decision whether it's worth the extra preparation and stress and perhaps disappointment if you are not selected.

I know of several young students that have come to similar conclusions.

I don't think OP's DD is being remotely sensible ruling out Oxbridge for the reasons she gave, or London because she has relatives living there.

And frankly if she wants to study NS then there is already a narrow field. So ruling some of them out for specious reasons is definitey not sensible.

However, she is 17, it's almost part of her job description to be daft. I can perfectly see my 16 year old lad dismissing Manchester University because of United .

But as the adults in the picture our job is to be measured. Not to dismiss their feelings, but not to pander to the most stupid ones either.

The OP wants her DD to apply to Cambridge. The DD does not want to. The only sensible reply to that is 'I think you're wrong, but it's your choice.' Surely?

ruling out the nots is a common strategy, nothing wrong with that at all. Obviously it's better if they are ruled out for sound reasons but sometimes you can't articulate well at 18 why you are attracted to one university and not another.

If a student decided not to apply to, say, Southampton because they just didn't like the atmosphere on open day there would not be such a long thread about it or so many offensive comments.

There are a lot of state school educated pupils at Oxbridge, especially at Cambridge including e.g www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/homeless-student-who-cambridge-now-9873031 State school pupils now apply - and are accepted - in increasing numbers. The emphasis on improving access is shifting to working with younger students to help with subject choice and achieving good grades.

If a young person decided not to apply to Southampton, I doubt their mother would tart a thread asking others their DC's reasons for doing the same .

Shegot My DD1 won't apply to Manchester or RNCM because they are in Manchester. She's only applying to one place in the north and it's in the one place in the north that she has ever been (she has been to North Wales too I suppose that counts as North - but she's not applying to anywhere there either). There are common sense reasons for not applying (distance) but she isn't not applying for common sense reasons. She just doesn't fancy it. But she started the whole process by asking herself where could I go and then where do I fancy going rather than where do I not fancy going. So it feels more positive.

Sometimes reasons might seem ridiculous to one person but not to another. Our reasons for ruling out London unis might not be "good enough" for others.

I agree that the reasons given might be an attempt to explain why you don't like something but may not tell the whole story.

As I say, I've known a few rule Oxbridge out, various reasons really, and these are from both private school and state.

I don't think it holds the prestige maybe with all young people or all adults that you think it might.

As you say it wouldn't be a thread the same if it was a different uni.

When our DC don't want to do something that we think they ought to consider more fully before ruling it out, we don't say "it's your choice". We stop talking about it directly and start a drip-feed information campaign. Always works

I must admit bobo that I'm guilty of that too.

DH would be more likely to take the piss, bring in a bit of banter about their (poor) decision.

But at some point you just have to leave it, I guess?

DP and I know that our consulting backgrounds have trained us well in how to use information analytically to persuade. The poor DC were cornered when they were young

Now the DSSs are older and wiser they very much have minds of their own but our techniques seem to have rubbed off because they are both very good at data collection and analysis in order to make informed decisions. So we don't have stand-offs. Too early to tell with DD though!

But you do need to take care in that approach. I was subject to parental / school push for me to make the right or sensible decision. I ended up doing something I really wasn't interested in that much. I tend to explain some pros and cons but largely did not try and influence my DD but encourage her to talk through her ideas.

I agree head it's a balance.

And I think in OP's shoes I probably would just leave it on the Oxbridge issue.

Once I'd pointed out the falsehoods in her views on the place, then I certainly wouldn't pressure or battle.

But nor would I join the campaign against.

All you can do as a parent is give your advice. Eg one of my daughters says she wishes now she did history GCSE (all the other children did) and that she wishes she'd not taken physics and chemisty in the sixth form and had listened to my advice but at the time she and I both know she took her own decisions and good for her. That is all we can do is offer them advice and leave them to take their own decisions.

Some parents whose children always want to do the opposite of what they advise even advise against their view so the child take the view against that i.e. the parent's view although that's quite a risky strategy and some children take parents' advice - my youngest 2 took the GCSEs I wanted them to do and say they are pleased with their choices. their friend who did drama and art amongst others got Bs in only those two and found the work, course work etc was much much mnore time consuming in what they had assumed were slightly easier softer subjects than they expected.

Therre are five lines on a UCAS form. A strong candidate not wanting either London or Oxbridge will presumably expect to get offers from most if not all the remaining choices. If I wanted a child to consider Oxbridge or London, I might suggest that it was only one line on the form so nothing lost, and that the process, eg interview, aptitude test etc, might form a valuable life experience. How much better to try for something really competitive when you don't have much emotionally invested. And who knows, after the interview and the rest, the child might decide they enjoyed the challenge and would like to study there. Or at least know more about the choice they were making.

It probably is one advantage of private schools is that they are used to seeing peers aiming very high, often not making it. So not making it, is not failure and aiming high is the norm. I could imagion that in a school with relatively few Oxbridge candidates there will be an element of "who do you think you are" followed by a "she's failed". We had a bit of that from relatives and it was difficult.

It is worth also recognising that the experience of our DC is limited. So DS had not problems seeing himself in London but was far less sure about life on a campus university. I am glad I went with him to Warwick, as I could see him there, and indeed saw lots of boys who looked like his then friendship group. (Maybe Secret Squirrels son was one.) He liked the course so if that had been his only offer I would have hoped I could have helped him see himself there.

Another life lesson is about not picking up one or two immediate concerns and then digging in. I agree it is difficult with teens but keeping an open mind, listening to the views of others, and allowing a degree of flexibility are all good things. If I were OP I might be encouraging my child to think beyond self-catering or family and to weight up everything, and then come to a decision. One really useful thing DS' school did as part of the UCAS process, was teach them some decision making techniques. We were then able to suggest he used them and went through them with us.

Janet, there is also rarely a "right" decision. DD might have listening to my pragmatic suggestion that Latin or IT might have given her the 8As that would have helped in her medical school application. Instead she loved art, loved the teacher and got a huge amount out of it, despite not having the talent needed for an A.

I am currently spooking myself by reading The Student Room and postings from kids who seem to have devoted their teenage years to maximising their chances of getting into medical school. Scary stuff. DD instead is taking the "good enough" approach. Her results should be good enough but she did not want to turn down the chance of being a Prefect, continuing with sport, or having a social life. (And it is such fun being 17!) If she misses she may regret it. But possibly not. If ticking the many boxes now required for medical school mean essentially not having a life, or developing the maturity and life skills associated with that life, then so be it.

I remember one Cambridge graduate friend saying I should not be over impressed by people who had been to Oxbridge. (For whatever reason and even at things like NCT coffee mornings people seemed to need to tell you if they went to Oxbridge or SPGS or if their husbands went to Eton, as if these were important markers to status and intelligence.) Many had swotted their way to a place and, even at University, were quite uninteresting.

In an ever more competitive world, with ever more people chasing a proportionately dwindling number of prizes, there is an inevitable trade-off between working towards the prizes and having a balanced life. Sadly, IME, the balanced candidates rarely win the most glorious prizes. Our world is destined to be controlled by nerds and workaholics.

The only-one-line-on-a-UCAS-form has been the approach in this house along with a policy of putting down five good unis rather than two good, one middling and two insurances which is the 'safe' advice. On the grounds that you only need one offer (and then get the grades). I guess two DC would in reality have been a bit upset if they hadn't got a place but I think they'd have moved on pretty swiftly. So I've encouraged risking giving it a go if a child's in the frame - by which I don't necessarily mean eleven A* grades - and been very clear to say it's a long shot where it has been and to encourage them to look at the considerable positives elsewhere. I wonder whether TP has actually turned the DD right off? She might well have done if her frequent mentions of the DD being an Oxbridge applicant were replicated on the home front - it could be very oppressive indeed. And mightn't a child worry that if they didn't get in they'd be letting a parent down, if they see the parent is completely hung up on Oxbridge?

Ah prefects - my children seem to go out of their way to avoid that as it means more work as indeed the school Oxbridge classes would have meant. You can lead a horse to water....

Yes, failure is good. Most of what I've succeeded in has come about after picking self up from failures. I made sure the children took some music exams they might fail and if they failed they sat again and passed. Iti s the red marks on the page and thou has been lazy and thus failed which is as good for children as "you are all brilliant" school of teaching.

Needmoresleep DS1 and many of his friends who all got multiple med school offers took your DD's approach. DS1 was very relaxed, did what he was interested in and left out what he didn't want to do, which was quite a bit. Sane is fine - my DC tell me that much of TSR needs to be taken with a bucket of salt.

Janet, there has been more work than expected, though she is enjoying the exposure to senior staff and understanding better how the school works. Unike DS who just drifted through and who was never in contention.

One of her responsibilities involves pursuading peers to keep a common room tidy. Really funny given the state of her bedroom. DH wanted to help her draft the email she needed to send, but was absolutely not allowed. She is on a hiding to nothing on this, but it's still a life experience.

needmoresleep not sure I agree that an advantage of private schools is that students are used to aiming high. It can be quite a disadvantage. It can be crushing to be the one that doesn't make it and can leave students feeling quite down and what they are doing is somehow not worthwhile.

Aiming high is great if it works out, or you can cope with it not, but if you are a different character it can prove a difficult experience all round.

Some children I am sure will use it as a wake up call or it will spur them on to greater things, but not everyone reacts that way - some may cease to gain pleasure from what they have achieved.