Despite having the right grades, my child is not applying to Oxbridge because ....

[TalkinPeace]

• she wants to live in self catered accommodation
• she does not like the small sizes of the colleges / social units
• having to go back to college for lunch while doing a lab based degree does not make sense
• the whole gown and formal dinner stuff smacks of coat tails rather than standing on own feet
• she does not fancy fighting through hordes of tourists while moving between buildings
• having a tutor picked by which college they are based in rather than their research specialism seems very odd to her

Also, for what she wants to do, the course at Oxford is not that well balanced
and Cambridge, despite having a fab course was not a place that felt like home when she visited for 2 days.

So she will be putting other Universities on her form and taking a great deal of stress out of this house.

For what its worth, those of her friends I've chatted to are also ruling out Oxbridge in favour of other Unis because of the first four points.

What are other people's reasons for ruling out Oxbridge, despite having the grades?

Talkin My brother refused to apply to Oxbridge. His stated reasons were as follows:-

He wanted to do Chemistry and didn't fancy Natsci as hated physics (so Cam out) and thought Oxford wasn't as good as Cam for science. (Cam - good point. Ox - less so - most of his six choices were much much less good for Chemistry according to league tables at the time.)
Too many posh people at Oxbridge. (He ended up at Bristol. )
Everywhere else was offering BBB for chemistry he didn't want the stress of having to get AAA or AAB. (Good point - he'd seen the stress I'd been through 3 years earlier. However all his teachers said he would get AAAA easily. And in fact he did - despite not bothering with pesky things like revision. Git.)
He didn't like religion and all the colleges had a chapel. (Think he was getting desperate at this point!)

There was also his unstated reason - that I was at Cambridge so if he got in he'd be "just like your sister" and if he didn't he'd be "not as good as your sister" and he didn't really fancy either of those.

15 years later he admits his reasoning was wrong and he should have applied. However, he's happy with his life now so doesn't regret it.

Personally I think not going was the right choice as he didn't love chemistry. I believe very strongly that if you don't really really love a subject then you shouldn't do it at Oxbridge as the intensity and pressure of work is such that very soon you will start hating it.

No TP DS doesn't pay twice. If he wants to cook for himself he can and if he doesn't he pays for a college meal. Simples. Also, the kitchens are well equipped.

I have to say that given the focus on food and lunches as opposed to her subject, it might well be a good call to give it a miss!

I have a mental image of thousands of students moving en masse around Oxford/Cambridge at 1pm...to get back for lunch!

moli
I have to say that given the focus on food and lunches as opposed to her subject
Trust me it was a short conversation in this house

Looking at course modules and options at lots of unis has taken MONTHS
and before going to the Cambridge events she read up on the course obsessively and then found the department to be as disorganised as Portsmouth on the day !

My DS didn't choose Oxbridge because he looked around and preferred another uni. He got great grades and a good degree from another excellent university.

Not wanting Oxbridge is no big deal, you don't need to justify it. They are great universities but not for everyone

Well that's positive at least TP but to be honest, taken as a whole, her reasons for not applying at least to Cambridge are spectacularly weak/ misinformed. If she doesn't like the course at Oxford, fair enough, obv, but not applying to Cambridge because she doesn't want to go back to college for lunch...... What were her results, incidentally? And if you don't mind saying (just being nosy), what is her preferred science? (curious about Oxford not cutting the mustard, though I do know its science courses don't appeal to all).

What a strange post! Smacks of inverse snobbery a bit to me.
No one will force her to go to Oxbridge-better that she go somewhere she likes.

Fwiw I felt 'at home' within minutes of stepping into my college for a look round and had the time of my life. I have zero regrets about choosing Cambridge.

molio
AABBB and its the NatSci / Biology plus route that appeals
She's got a spreadsheet of the modules at each of about 12 unis that interest her
then she had to whittle down to five
and take into account the outcome of the Cambridge event
and pick either Oxford or Cambridge
and I know that compared with Private schools the colleges are a good size, but compared with the schools she's been at for the last 6 years, 200 in a cohort is downright claustrophobic

But lots of state schools have cohorts of less than 200 too - it's not a private school thing. I know her sixth form is vast but it's very unusual - and lots from her place and Hills Rd get offers, go and are happy. Not that it doesn't matter to her, just saying those students adapt. She can't be friends with the whole cohort either - most students don't have even 200 friends.

200 people is hardly "claustrophobic", this isn't school, it's university, she will eventually be at work, with far smaller amounts of people than 200.

Her reasons seem very shortsighted and a little chippy if I'm honest, the lunch thing is downright bizarre.

I'm sure she will make the right choice for her, if she has the grades for Oxbridge, she will go somewhere wonderful I'm sure. Relax

Utterly fair point.
I'll see what the college staff say at the start of term
and might possibly consider getting her to maybe think about one of the bigger Cambridge colleges

Its such a shame that the Oxford course is more more to her liking as she loves Oxford as a place and could ignore the other issues
but Cambridge just did not "click" - which is essential IMHO

Thank goodness we have plans B through E lining up

Something to bear in mind if she likes NatSci - at Cambridge the only way to do science is to do NatSci and then specialise later.

In universities where you can choose to do one specific science from the start, those doing NatSci are often not considered to be as academically-minded. In Bath the biochemists looked down in natscis as people who chose the easiest modules.

Stop focusing on the cohort in the college, and remind her that it's the whole university that is open to her as a social circle - colleges and departments and hobbies all make small social circles that make it easier to meet people, but there is nothing stopping her from widening from that. Best of both worlds. There are thousands of undergraduates - and postgraduates, and she will come across them all when doing activities and so on, in college and across colleges.

She might try going back at a time in the middle of term. And meeting some ordinary undergraduates (maybe look more on the student room for ideas of which colleges might suit).

But if she doesn't like it, there's no shame in saying so. But probably not a great idea to keep saying she thinks the formal dinners and all that mean people aren't standing on their own two feet etc., as that it part of what comes across as chippy. And I really do seriously mean the bit about finding what you think you will find - if she goes in looking for people being spoiled or molly coddled or whatever she doesn't like, she will find it. You can find every sort there, and she will find her sort if she wants. If she doesn't want to, that's equally fine, and she will find somewhere that does make her happy, I'm sure.

She needs to be really passionate about science, both biology and science in general, and be excited by it. And needs pretty decent grades, too. But it's the passion that will swing it.

Talk the rules on paying for meals vary between colleges, as do the self catering facilities. Some colleges have no fixed charges or minimum spend. But as others have said, those that do may be cheaper anyway.

I really liked that I was finally amongst loads of people who enjoyed learning and study, didn't think it geeky, had a whole variety of odd hobbies and interests, were passionate about all kinds of things, were interested in discussions about so many random topics. It wasn't seen as weird to do those things; in fact it was quite unremarkable to do many of the things that people had been 'known' for (in a good or bad way) at their secondary schools. For some, that led to feelings of inferiority; for others, it was like coming home.

My downmarket Northern redbrick was like this too. Pretty sure it's related to choosing further education; nothing to do with the elite status of your cohort.

Hello Talking! Well I tried to say you don't have to justify not applying! My DCs variously decided not to apply to outstanding universities - Manchester, Durham, ICL - gnashed my teeth geographically but definitely didn't feel the need for them or me to justify why they didn't. It's a big diverse world, why your fixation on Oxbridge?
Maybe if you hadn't put Oxbridge in the subject heading it would have kept out us lot and attracted others? Give it a go with a new thread and we'll keep quiet.

Yes, that is probably a big part of it. However I was also at another place first, and didn't get the same feeling there - it was far too big, there were students there not just because they loved the subject, but because they wanted a degree more generally, and I still got that feeling of being weird for being really passionate about the subject. Of course it was also a fairly non-selective place, which didn't help. I didn't also get the feeling of fitting in with my hobbies etc, which I did at Cambridge. I just found that Cambridge was an easier place to be keen on academic stuff, or music, or whatever. Much more so than the first university, which was still like school in that feeling it gave me for being on the fringes for being too bookish/studious etc, doing well at academic stuff was not particularly respected. It might well just have been the schools/university I was at, though, and I'm sure others will have different experiences. But I know a number of people who have said that they liked the feeling of being 'ordinary' when they came to Cambridge. All those things that had marked them out at school, were suddenly just normal.

I've found it very interesting. The fact that what is in the prospectus is not what people seem to experience is I guess something I should have expected more than I did.

And it has made me think that I will see what the tutors say next month
as I do not have a closed mind to any university

Just to the chorus of people saying that you/ your daughter have misconceptions about Cambridge. I self catered loads. I don't think I was paying twice. I definitely hardly ever ate lunch in the college hall. On one memorable occasion, I had ten people in my bedroom eating an entire roast Sunday lunch which I had cooked in halls!

The size of college is pretty irrelevant. You can spend as much or as little time in college. If you are big into a sport (for eg), you'll be socialising with those people. You may well spend more time with the (hundreds) of people on your course than just the ones in your college. And there are only so many friends you can make! The university itself is full of thousands of people - that's your pool of potential friends, not just your college.

The more modern colleges are often much less stuffy when it comes to gowns, Latin etc etc. Mine had no gowns, no Latin, high proportion of state school entrants. In fact, my SIL, who went to Bristol (graduated a couple of years ago), met way more old Etonians there than I did at Cambridge! (I met none all the time I was at Cambridge).

The advantages of having gone to Camb IME:

Being surrounded by a bunch of really intelligent, mostly keen and hard working peers. This was really great - to feel that people were your intellectual equal (or superior to you!).

Being taught by world leaders in my subject.

Doing literally double the work as my DH did at another top, but not Oxbridge university - they really do expect you to work hard during the short terms. Great grounding in processing large amounts of information and arguing and analysing it, as well as forcing you to be very organised and focussed if you stood any chance of a 2.1, let alone a 1st.

Fantastic range of extra curricular things going on, in every conceivable interest area. Although I appreciate other universities may have this...!

Why reject the obvious advantages out of hand (not even applying - she might not get offered a place even if she did apply!) when her reasons for not applying are not very convincing? It sounds like she may be worried about possible rejection and therefore better not to apply in the first place...

I think people are being slightly strange themselves claiming that TP's DD's desire not to be forced to pay for meals she won't eat is bizarre. When I was applying 31 years ago (that's depressing...) I was definitely careful to only consider colleges where I wouldn't have to pay for food I would not be eating (in those days vegans were not properly catered for not even at kings). It was partly an issue of cost and partly of principle. Luckily of course there were several colleges where that wasn't going to happen. I never had a meal in the buttery at my college in the whole time I was there and if Spinoa thinks I'm odd well, I don't care. DD1 is probably going to apply (although she still isn't certain) and if she does apply she too will select a college where meals aren't included even though she may be prepared to eat chips in the buttery/canteen/whatever on occasion (since she is veggie not vegan and since she doesn't have the food allergies I have). People can get hung up on lots of things that may seem inconsequential to others but that doesn't mean they aren't valid concerns - however, TP, you can assure your DD that it isn't going to be an issue for her if she chooses her college carefully (and I wouldn't recommend Queens if you want to self cater, I really wouldn't, it's one of the least best places for doing that (my best friend from school was at Queens, when she wanted to cook she came over to mine and cooked there)).

When I was a student I found myself in a very different environment to the one I was used to in my northern comprehensive. There were small tutorial groups, I felt intellectually inferior to pretty much everybody and I had to attend formal dinners, which I absolutely loathed. I found it very challenging but I had to do it for the greater good of my education.
Your dd has every right to reject whichever university she wishes to for whatever reason but I think it shows a lack of maturity and flexibility which are skills she needs to develop in preparation for entering the workplace.

Actually I didn't mean for that to sound so harsh!

^And it has made me think that I will see what the tutors say next month
as I do not have a closed mind to any university^

But it's your DD who's going to university so what does it matter whether you have a closed mind or not?

And she hasn't got the grades for Oxbridge anyway so I don't understand your angst.

She sounds like me 30 years ago! Except my choice was Uni versus Articles!

What she needs to be careful of if she changes her mind is how she'll come across in interview. It's hard to fake real passion for the uni when it's just not happening (whatever the reason is).

What are the dd's grades?