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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

My girl has set her heart on Oxford or Cambridge. Encourage or ignore????

292 replies

Ilovemyrabbits · 04/06/2013 20:47

DD is 12...I know, it's very young and she's got a long way to go before we seriously need to consider this BUT...she is a very determined young lady who becomes very focussed when she has a goal in mind. She is academic and does well at school but she's not always top of the class. She's not overly outgoing, but she mixes well when she needs to. She has told all her friends she wants to go to Oxford or Cambridge. Her Y6 teacher told her she could do this if she wanted to. In the teacher's defence, she has two daughters who have gone through the Oxbridge process successfully and I think she was trying to be encouraging.

I am torn here between wanting to encourage dd in her aims, because it's good to aim high, and wanting her to be grounded. She's quite a sensible girl, even at 12, but I'm trying to figure how to deal with this. Part of me thinks, keep quiet...it's a long way before the decisions need to be made and she may well adapt her plans by then. Another part of me thinks, she's stubborn and what do we do if she sticks with it?? Should we be encouraging her now? Asking teachers if she's capable? Or what????

Neither her dad nor I went to university, so I guess we're a little out of our comfort zone here. Does anyone have any advice for me????

OP posts:
Bonsoir · 08/06/2013 21:22

"I happen to think visiting Oxford and Cambridge as a prospective applicant aged 12 is over the top."

Yellowtip - I would probably have agree with you until this evening. Over supper, however, DD came out with the gem "Lilly [her BF] and I have been discussing living together. You know, later on."

If my 8 year old is discussing flat shares for when she leaves home with her BF, perhaps taking her round universities at 12 might be on the cards?

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 08/06/2013 21:56

I dunno, if you're going to have a weekend away, you get sparked by the places you have chatted about as a family, dont you? I don't think OP is doing anything wrong in using that as a starter for where they go and spend a weekend: if they're going into to the porters' lodge and asking for a special tour and to meet the admissions tutor, maybe.... But it doesn't sound like that!

Yellowtip · 08/06/2013 22:18

I'm floored Bonsoir, also impressed - and good luck! :)

TOSN I think OP is marshalling her weekends away exactly with a view to her DD's potential uni destinations. It's too young and is just so intense.

OP you've said that you're WC and have had no tertiary education and of course DD is an only child. Are you sure that you're being fair to her on all this precocious university stuff?

angusandelspethsthistlewhistle · 08/06/2013 22:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UptheChimney · 08/06/2013 22:59

Working class, I presume?

RainSunWind · 08/06/2013 23:17

Definitely encourage but not to the degree (at impressionable age 12) that it becomes so set in stone that anything short is devastating, or disappointing or inferior.

Enthusiastic but cautious encouragement - a bit of a tall order really!

I would like to add that my dad always encouraged me to aim high but the reality was that my personality is better suited to working way up and being thoroughly and unshakeably confident in my abilities from the ground upwards. I wasted years applying for jobs (after uni) that were way out of my league to no avail whist working in the most low paid jobs.

My career break came from making a entry into a lower level into my career and at that point I felt like I'd disappointed my dad because I hadn't gone into a great top-paying job with a company car and a pension and private healthcare and this and that. Now, I have achieved those things. but I really felt like I'd failed him and myself at the time that I didn't get in on a higher level.

I guess what I'm saying is don't let your DD think (nor become it) that her dream is your dream too. You need to always be encouraging but not so much she's "failed" if she doesn't do it.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 08/06/2013 23:29

Why is it unfair for a working class parent of one child to try to be mildly helpful in this matter, though?

Yellowtip · 08/06/2013 23:39

RainSunWind I'm wondering where this 12yr old gets her dream from. Her parents are both self effacing working class with neither having experienced tertiary education and she went to a state primary and is now at an unexceptional state comp. The fact that she's anticipating a goodly sum from inheritance wouldn't alter her life view at this stage too much - even assuming she knew of the good fortune to come. Her Mum is well versed in the hierarchy of UK unis and appears to have though it all out. I'm having difficulties with my narrow minded view of stereotypes here, but that's my deficiency of course, no-one else's.

Yellowtip · 08/06/2013 23:41

thought it, not though it.

duchesse · 08/06/2013 23:41

Bonsoir, at 8 my third child extensively discussed the type of flat she was going to share with her brother when she left home, what type of car they would have (a pink Smart car) and how messy it was likely to be with the two of them sharing it. Grin

Somethingyesterday · 09/06/2013 07:18

OP Regarding theatre visiting - you're so lucky to have the Crucible on your doorstep and West Yorkshire Playhouse, The Royal Exchange and The Lowry just a short drive / train ride away. (You should find it relatively easy to ignore the worthy, boring, or "meant for children", there's always something world class, avant- garde and exciting happening at one of these.) Most of them have well organised young people's groups if your daughter is interested in being actively involved in drama. And if you happen to be in Edinburgh during the Festival it might be interesting to seek out some of the innumerable student productions.

Xenia · 09/06/2013 11:31

I don't think there is anything wrong at all in having high aspirations for a working class child. If she aims for Oxbridge even if she does not get in she is less likely to leave school at 16 with no GCSEs. She might end up reading engineering at UCL or something and do really well. If her desire to go to Oxbridge is dampened she might consider instead leaving school at 16 to do hair dressing or have a baby.

One of my mine was going to live in Switzerland when she grew up (not part of her plans now she has graduated) but chidlren often plan things. As we know I planned to have a large family, high paid career and buy an island (on which with any luck the small building project starts this week) when I was a teenager and all that came to pass. Planning is not necessarily bad.

chenin · 09/06/2013 11:47

Very similar story to the OP (neither OH nor I went to Uni...)
I think it's good to encourage but not to make this the be-all and end-all. My DD2 had English as her passion and ended up being interviewed at two colleges for Oxford over two days, and didn't get through. The interview procedures were really quite gruelling and looking back now, I am quite glad that she ended up where she did (Bristol Uni) as she has loved every minute of her time at Uni. She hasn't even graduated yet, but handed in her Dissertation on a Wednesday 3 weeks ago, and started a chance in a lifetime fantastic job 4 days later on the other side of the country......

I am not saying she shouldn't aim for Oxbridge but I do think that it doesn't suit everyone and seeing her develop like she has, has made me think that perhaps it wouldn't have suited my DD and her personality. She blossomed at Bristol and might have felt a bit out of her depth at Oxford as everyone at the interviews were private school educated, she wasn't and felt it.

As far as encouraging her love of English (great subject) at age 12, I would suggest you don't yet steer her towards the Classics... she will have YEARS of that if she takes English at Uni. Let her read what she wants, if she loves English, she will be a vociferous reader of anything and everything. I would encourage 'story writing'... my DD was always into writing stories and it stood her in good stead. Also, in time when she is older, encourage her to get some unpaid work experience at a publishers... that has been invaluable in helping my DD secure her fulltime job.

Your DD is young and there is nothing like encouragement but in my opinion, I think you should put it on the back burner for now.

wordyBird · 09/06/2013 12:10

It's a lifetime away, age 12 to age 18. Too soon for realism and 'yes, but...' .... I would encourage her, tell her it's a great idea, and help her focus on schoolwork and self discipline.

I had similar thoughts at a similar age, bought a prospectus, etc, my parents encouraged me without going into it too deeply IYSWIM? I loved to research and they let me do that. Age 18 I was a young adult and very different in many ways from how I was at 12 (not necessarily in a bad way though!)

Your planned approach sounds great, keep it broad and encouraging as you would for any child.

Ilovemyrabbits · 09/06/2013 13:52

Sorry I didn't get back before about the above posts. I did think this thread was at it's end, but clearly I misjudged that. I do understand that this could all look a little 'tiger-mother'-esque, with dd being 12 and miles away from tertiary education. She has this dream and, to some degree, to us, it's not much different from wanting to be a film star or a train driver.

It has been instilled by us, as parents, that she should go to university from a young age. I know it's not the right path for everyone, but she's always been an academically oriented child and I believe it's an experience she should be allowed to have. We never mentioned specific universities, other than saying, go oop north and your dad'll be able to pop in and buy you lunch when he's out on the road (said in a jovial way, rather than a serious, let's make lists now kind of way).

In terms of her educational achievements so far, she's always been academically focussed, generally top 4 or 5 in the class, so not top dog, but certainly a clever girl. I'd say she's not naturally gifted, but she is a grafter and that comes from a life time of tough, practical based, work ethic on the part of her maternal and paternal families. She doesn't get too disappointed when she fails at something, or doesn't get top marks, she just identifies where she's gone wrong and puts it right.

From DH and I, dd has always been told that she'll probably go to university. I feel that she should be given the opportunity her dad and I never had, even if it just allows her to have 3 years living away from home broadening her horizons and having fun. That doesn't mean we're living vicariously through her. DH never wanted to go to Uni, but he sees that it's a different start to life than we had and there can be no harm in it. Is it wrong to want better for our children? And what can be better than a good education? If we could afford it, I daresay we would have educated privately, but we prioritised our spending differently and we were lucky enough to have good schools on the doorstep to help us make that prioritisation.

To be fair, we do a lot of weekends in cities, and holiday trips too, as we often piggy back on DH's business trips. We've stayed in Durham loads of times, and we've pointed out the university because it's hard not to. We've done Birmingham, because of my family, and other university towns, just because they happened to be there. I mentioned going to Oxford/Cambridge settings because they're nice places to go and, as someone mentioned, we've talked about them so much lately, it'd be nice to see them.

Though this thread may make it seem like we're taking this all a bit too seriously, we haven't mentioned much to dd since it started. I've talked to DH about encouraging the earnest desire to learn more than specific destinations. I've mentioned to dd that university is a long way away and when it comes, she might find that her options/chosen path of study, will make other universities much more palatable. All this in a conversational way when she's raised the topic of universities.

As Xenia says, it's better to encourage her to Oxbridge and see her disappointed than discourage it and see her set her sights on a gangster boyfriend and a council flat. Thinking of dd, though, the latter seems an unlikely life plan for her as she has a real tendency to plan and calculate outcomes for everything, sometimes annoyingly so, and she wouldn't be happy with those outcomes right now. Of course at 18, who knows?

I am WC but I have aspirations for my only child. I myself got 10 O Levels at an awful, sink estate comprehensive and, with no parental encouragement and careers advice that was based on my scruffy appearance rather than the fact that I took several exams early, I ended up leaving school and going to college for 2 years. I went to study BTEC National Diploma in Business Studies and then I went out to earn some money and 'pay the rent' as my mother put it. I want the world to hold more than that for my girl but I would never push her into something she didn't want for herself.

Some people seem to think that I'm driving this poor 12 year old girl, regardless of her wants and needs, to some unattainable goal. That I'm pushing universities down her throat and focussing our whole lives around it. As we sit, reading junk novels together and looking forward to watching Chuck on tv this evening after supper, it seems insane I ever raised this subject. But, as I said in the beginning, ignore or encourage?? And as encouragement seems the preferred opinion on MN and at the back of my head, encouragement I think it will be.

Thank you everyone for your kind wishes and constructive criticism. We are indeed, lucky to live in a fabulous city with culture and outdoor activities aplenty on the doorstep and if dd decides to study here, or anywhere else for that matter, we will not be at all disappointed.

OP posts:
RainSunWind · 09/06/2013 15:07

You sound really sensible OP and your DD is lucky to have you to support her whatever she chooses to do. Having aspirations is a good thing and you don't sound like you are living vicariously through her at all - just that you naturally want her to have aspirations, choices and options.

Ilovemyrabbits · 09/06/2013 15:54

Thank you RainSunWind. I try really hard to do the best for dd and being the youngest of 6 kids, all raised on a sink estate, I know how badly things can work out if your children don't have aspirations. Fingers crossed she'll enjoy her time at Secondary school and will make it to some university, somewhere. And if she doesn't, we'll see what she wants to do and support that (as long as it's not getting married to some druggie boyfriend in a squat in the back of beyond or something!)

OP posts:
wordyBird · 09/06/2013 16:39

You sound like lovely, supportive parents: combining this with your dd's ambition, and ability to plan and work, will give her the best chances whatever she chooses to do.

Her willingness to learn, rather than be fixated on results, is also a huge asset. I've heard this called the 'growth mindset', a cheesy sounding concept but it really helps people to achieve. She will go far. :)

Ilovemyrabbits · 09/06/2013 17:43

Thanks wordybird. I suspect we're like a lot of parents out there but it is nice to think we're doing ok -parenting wise :D and I love the idea of a "growth mindset". DD is so much more focused than I ever was. Hopefully that will give her the resilience she'll need to overcome the exam challenges to come.

OP posts:
senua · 09/06/2013 18:44

You sound like you have got it spot on rabbits. You have been given advice and taken it on board; hopefully your DD will do the same in time. It is a difficult juggling act because you want to plan for the future but life changes at such a rapid rate these days that no-one knows what the future is anymore. It is probably safe to say that Oxbridge will still hold kudos by the time your DD gets to Y13 but I wouldn't like to predict anything else. Many (clever, academic) boys in DS's year are turning against University because they don't see the sums adding up, and are going for Apprenticeships and the like instead.
The main thing you can do is support your DD. IIRC, irrespective of the school they go to, parental support adds about 15% to pupils' grades.
The other advice, which I don't think has been mentioned upthread, is don't specialise too soon; keep all doors open for as long as possible.

Ilovemyrabbits · 09/06/2013 21:10

Thanks for that valuable piece of info senua. We always told dd, from being very young, that she'd have fun at uni, but if she wanted to be a plumber or a builder or a truck driver, she could have fun doing that too.

As she gains maturity she will undoubtedly change her view of the future and her goals will change.

I don't think uni is the be all and end all in terms of education and if dd was more practical I'd be wondering about a more apprentice type education for her. The builders we had on site recently all seemed to have amazing lifestyles. One had a house in France he lived in 3 months every year and visited at weekends whenever he got chance. Another had motorbiked all across Europe and was planning a trip from Croatia to Russia this summer. Made my week in Northumberland look a bit sick, I can tell you.

OP posts:
Xenia · 10/06/2013 07:52

It sounds like the right things are being done for the daughter (and probably her mother, Ilove, is very clever and could have got to a great university with a different family quite easily). Even if it's not Oxbridge as someone else above said somewhere else can be good too (mine also went to Bristol and in career and earnings terms in the City I don't think her career is any different from those who went to Oxbridge - she wouldn't try for Oxbridge and that's fine - when they're 17 they make up their own minds).

When she does apply to look on line for tactical advice rather than just following what the school suggests. Some subjects are easier to get into than others. Some colleges (if there is still that system of applying to a college) have more demand than others. Be tactical about it. I agree though that pick a subject you adore as you'll be studying it for 3 years. I loved my subject. I still remember things I learned there all those years ago and use them still.

When she comes to pick GCSEs whatever the school suggest make sure she does the subjects the academic day and state schools do like English lit, eng lang, at least one foreign language like French, Geog, history, maths and 2 or 3 sciences. Then if she wants to do one extra of the softer type pick RS or music. Try to make sure she does them at the normal age and not earlier or one after the other at different times. In other words be involved and do not let the school push her to do things that will not help. Look at the websites of subjects for GCSE and A levels at leading high achieving academic day schools (grammar and private) to see their GCSE subjects.

(Most builders do not earn more than most, say, doctors and top lawyers though and I suspect there is more cash in hand tax evasion among the builders so they have a lot of cash floating around to spend on holidays. Also plenty of builders never get to own the firm and just work at minimum wage for other builders but I agree with the principle you can do well in many things if you work very hard and are clever about it).

Yellowtip · 10/06/2013 09:49

Xenia this is not a working class child, she actually sounds fairly privileged: her parents could have afforded private education but chose not to go down that route, she has a tidy sounding inheritance to look forward to and she's certainly got all the family support she could need to do as well as she's able (not that the latter is class related at all). She's also remarkably fortunate that her state school offers Latin, as so few comprehensives do and she's already settled on that as choice.

OP do you mean you pointed out the castle in Durham as the university? The university departments are scattered all over the city - there's no single building to point to especially since they abandoned Old Shire Hall.

wordfactory · 10/06/2013 10:41

I think if it's handled well, you can keep aspirations high while avoiding disappointment.

When I was about ten, my Mum wangled a day trip to London. In those days you were allowed right up to ten Downing Street and she took a picture of me with the copper out front. I still have it Grin.

I'm not devestated that I'm not Prime Minister. Well only a little ...

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 10/06/2013 11:16

Yellowtip I am surprised and confused at how hostile your posts seem to be on this subject. You may not mean it to come across this way, but you seem to be criticising everything the OP says and does - yes, because there are lots of University buildings in Durham, they are probably easier to point out than somewhere with a separate and discreet campus, I would have thought!

Her child has expressed an interest and she is asking for opinions on how to field it - I can't see why this is anything but thoughtful and good parenting.

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