My girl has set her heart on Oxford or Cambridge. Encourage or ignore????

[Ilovemyrabbits]

DD is 12...I know, it's very young and she's got a long way to go before we seriously need to consider this BUT...she is a very determined young lady who becomes very focussed when she has a goal in mind. She is academic and does well at school but she's not always top of the class. She's not overly outgoing, but she mixes well when she needs to. She has told all her friends she wants to go to Oxford or Cambridge. Her Y6 teacher told her she could do this if she wanted to. In the teacher's defence, she has two daughters who have gone through the Oxbridge process successfully and I think she was trying to be encouraging.

I am torn here between wanting to encourage dd in her aims, because it's good to aim high, and wanting her to be grounded. She's quite a sensible girl, even at 12, but I'm trying to figure how to deal with this. Part of me thinks, keep quiet...it's a long way before the decisions need to be made and she may well adapt her plans by then. Another part of me thinks, she's stubborn and what do we do if she sticks with it?? Should we be encouraging her now? Asking teachers if she's capable? Or what????

Neither her dad nor I went to university, so I guess we're a little out of our comfort zone here. Does anyone have any advice for me????

I want to write "you sound lovely OP" but I have seen it used sarcastically on here so many times that I can't. But you do sound very lovely and thoughtful.

I spent my teenage years working my way through the sci fi and detective back catalogue, so my only real touches with classic literature came where they met with sci fi (like Brave New World, 1984) or at school. When I got a bit older - 16/17 - I got into Keats, Byron, Shelley etc, but I think that was only because we did Keats at school, and Marlow, but again that was through doing Dr Faustus at school. So you DD may well find her own way into classic literature as you suggest. I know when I got the "reading list" that Cambridge sent over when I got accepted, I hadn't read much of it! (Luckily I had a year out to catch up).

English at Oxbridge is one of the most difficult subjects to get into Oxbridge to read. She might improve her chances a lot if she does a subject most people do not want to do, that's the trouble. On the other hand you need to do a subject you love.

Make sure her school knows about these kinds of things and can advise on which colleges are easier to get into too perhaps if that matters.

Encourage her to aim high, but to make sure she has some other places in mind in case intake is limited when she comes to apply.

I wasn't academically minded at school, but after a health scare I had a change of mind regarding my job, and returned to studies as a mature student a few years ago. I'm loving it!

(Incidentally I'm not a Oxford or Cambridge, but if I was young and single, that's where I'd be aiming).

My first 'broader reading' list on an Eng lit degree included things like Ovid and the bible! Knowing stuff like the Book of Job very useful in reading anything from King Lear to the Mayor of Casterbridge... Reading around ad acquiring some broader knowledge is perhaps as useful as just reading the 'canon'.

being head or deputy head of their school seems to have lots of people get to Oxbridge IME

If she wants to read English, encourage her to read English. Whether it's harder to get into Oxford or Cambridge to read English than other subject, I couldn't say.

It's certainly not impossible, as I and many other MNers can attest. (Whether an English degree, from Oxford or anyone else, is necessarily a Good Thing To Have is of course another question . IME it only leads to journalism and penury....)

Thank you Stella. That's very kind of you to say, but I'm really a bit of an old trout with a daughter (and dh) I don't really deserve. I have been fortunate in my life and have 'landed on my feet'. I try really hard not to take that for granted.

Lol about journalism and penury. Luckily dd is an only child (not planned, but ended up that way) and is an only grandchild on my husband's side and only niece to an ageing aunt. Though we're not wealthy, she is lucky enough to have a sound financial background behind her and she could possibly find that she has a bit more money coming her way at some point, which may save her from the penury! She's a lucky girl and I think she knows it.

Of course, right now dd hates Facebook, prefers going to the library to going to the park with her mates, refuses to shave her legs on the basis it will make her hairier and anyway, 'who's it for?' and has never pouted for a photo in her life. Between now and her later teens, I can see a lot changing. English and Oxford and Cambridge may be part of what changes, but if there's a chance that she'll chase the educational goods train, I'd like to think we've given her all the support and encouragement she could possibly need.

Thanks again, to everyone, for all the fantastic advice and viewpoints. Much, much, much appreciated.

And thanks for the list Senua. Am off to Amazon and am also going to start buying in newspapers (something I've always steered away from as I'm sure I'm part ostrich) so dd can be better informed on the ways of the world.

Don't forget the theatre, too.

Thanks again senua. Theatre trips added to the list :D

Encourage!

Far too many children get told that going to Oxford or Cambridge is not for them BY teachers believe it or not. Those two universities struggle to get applicants from state schools and if they spot a good one they do take them. Oxford and Cambridge struggle to overcome the inherent bias against elite universities that far too many teachers have and your DD is very lucky to have this early encouragement.

Outside interest dont count for a lot - you do have to be very bright but most of all you really have to show you want it and your DD does.

Definitely encourage!

If she is bright, hard-working and focussed there is no reason why she shouldn't get into Oxbridge. Why not?

There are plenty of very bright people who don't go to Oxbridge simply because they don't have enough self-belief to apply in the first place. Don't let your DD be one of these people.

OP is your DD a state schooler? Sorry if I've missed this, I rather got the impression from your comments that she might be an independent pupil instead.

MoreBeta far too many children who get fixed on the idea that Oxford/Cambridge and only Oxford/ Cambridge will do are disappointed. And the disappointment is that much greater if they aren't encouraged to keep an open mind from the start. I felt it was really important with my DC to plug the merits of other places and then to say A*s are great but it's meeting your offer that counts and then to say Firsts are overrated anyway and masses of brilliant people get much less than Firsts, you've had your three years of great education and that's what counts more than anything else. Perhaps my world view is too gloomy but I would never, ever want to set my DC up for a fall. Also, I believe all the stuff I've just said.

MoreBeta 'wanting it' is of no consequence at all , is it? .

She is state educated. Local primary followed by local comp. Her dad and I have no university degrees, so feel a bit out of our depth with the whole area.

Using common sense I would agree that just wanting it is folly. Desire alone is never enough to get what you want. Team up desire with focus and hard work though and you can achieve much, although even then not always your ultimate goal. If you don't shoot though, you don't score (apologies for the cliche but I'm not so well educated I can resist them :)).

Our local comp usually sends a handful of pupils to Oxbridge each year. I have told dd that her education is in her hands and she can achieve as much as she is willing to work for. For now I aim to encourage her in gaining as rounded an education as possible. Where that will lead her, I don't know but based on advice given here I certainly won't dismiss her dreams out of hand. I will just try to prepare her to see the work and results as the goal rather than the destination of Oxbridge. From what I can glean she should choose her destination based on the best course available for her and that probably won't be known for a few years yet.

Encouragement seems to be the dominant advice so we will be visiting both locations this year and talking about the plus points of aiming high and the beauty of being able to choose great alternatives if you are not one of the chosen few. I can't say how pleased I am at the amount of encouraging posts I've seen on this subject. As a working class girl it does restore my faith somewhat in education.

Encourage her to AIM HIGH!

But remind her how lovely Nottingham University and York University are, how inspirational London University and Manchester University are also. Just because you don't land in the stars, you should be looking in the sky!

Thanks hovering. I think Manchester, York and Nottingham are all a bit close to home, but maybe that's just because dd's 12 and hormonal right now :) I'd like her to check out London, Durham, Lancaster or Edinburgh but it will depend on her chosen subject. I'm saying this based on the lifestyles they provide cos I don't know about the courses they offer. I like to think she'll keep an open mind but we'll see.

I've even mentioned the possibility of studying abroad (in for a penny, in for a pound) and that seems to have hit a nerve. DD will probably choose Sheffield, then I'll never be rid of her and her laundry:)

I think there's a balance to be struck between living in the present and thinking about the future. Focusing on doing well term by term across the range of subjects is common sense. I think it's only when starting on GCSE coursework, that it's more possible to tell when somebody has the sort of intelligence and drive that will appeal to the most selective universities. (And the way in which GCSEs are being structured is changing.) So much depends on what you eventually decide you want to study as to whether a particular 'elite' university is the right one. And it also depends on what sort of person you turn out to be - the teenage years bring lots of changes. I think some parents approach their children's future like a military campaign, driving towards objectives that are set years in advance. Generally I'm in favour of a more relaxed approach, which involves being affirming and encouraging - but is also very aware if there being a range of options and choices and priorities which will change over time.

The other universities you mention are all great and well worth getting a degree from. However, there is no denying that all universities are NOT equal and a degree from Oxbridge (in any subject) will open doors that wouldn't be open otherwise.

I think it is entirely possible that a graduate with a Pharmacy degree from Aston is much more employable - and will be employed more readily - than someone with a degree in Theology from Cambridge. Many of the newer universities do courses that are more closely connected to the needs of employers. If I was interviewing I might rate somebody with first class honours from University A, more highly than someone with second class honours from University B. A job applicant's personality (soft skills), their previous work experience are all going to be relevant. Major organisations have equal ops policies and make some sort of effort to implement them. I think the fields in which an 'old boys' network flourishes - and it is boys - are quite restricted. It depends whether (or not) it's somebody's aim in life to hang round with David Cameron....

I reckon at your DDs age a reasonably bright child who is hard working and motivated has a better chance of eventually getting in to Oxbridge than a 'top of the class' student who is lazy and unfocused.

Just make sure she doesn't get sucked into the mindset of 'Oxbridge or nothing', as that could lead to problems if she doesn't get in and doesn't have a back-up plan.

DH and I both went to Cambridge (where we met). Both of us had primary school teachers who encouraged our parents to consider Oxbridge as a realistic possibility. In both our cases, we were about 9 years old at the time.

In our cases, we also both had parents who had studied there, so we didn't suffer from "it's not for the likes of us" syndrome. But our primary schools were both bog-standard state community schools and I'm very grateful to the teachers who planted the seed of an idea very early on.

Having said which, definitely wider her horizons, make sure she knows about other fantastic options and whatever you do, don't spend the next 6 years stressing about her personal statement . Just avoiding dismissing the idea and keeping an open mind is probably enough at this stage!

What is your own educational background OP? At what age did you leave school and what did you do then?

It seems to me that you may be moving too fast in the university direction given that your DD has six years and several sizeable hurdles yet to go. I happen to think visiting Oxford and Cambridge as a prospective applicant aged 12 is over the top, although going to see the sights is somewhat different. But you're now moving on to your DD 'checking out' London/ Durham/ Lancaster/ Edinburgh. And you don't even yet know what course (not that she should have settled on a course at her age, but there comes a point where musing on different unis is pointless without having an idea of the course. If she wants to be a vet she can't study at Durham. Same with Medicine unless she doesn't mind a separate campus. Etc. etc.).

FrauMoose I think Oxford and Cambridge do still bring opportunities which in the old days would be put down to an 'old boys' network' but which in reality is about bright students with a sparkling track record being introduced to those who can help them get on and/ or want exactly that sort of graduate in their own organisation/ chambers whatever. 'Old boys' network' suggests no merit is involved. It most certainly is not just for the boys either - definitely not.

I would agree that there may be aspects of Oxford and Cambridge (perhaps this is partly about collegiate universities, one to one tutorials etc) that can offer a chance for people to form close connections/affiliations) that is a bit different from the situation at very big universities.

However of the people I know when I studied at one of these universities, there was a huge range of outcomes - which depended on the individual personalities and backgrounds and ambitions of the the students. I think what I object to is the 'Glittering Prizes' mythology around Oxford and Cambridge. There are ways in which both places offer a slightly different experience, which some people will enjoy and others may not. There's a tendency to assume if something is a) a bit harder to access and b) is associated with class/social prestige it is c) better.

And I am really, really not sure.

To be fair though Yellowtip, university towns tend to be towns with lots of other interesting things and to be nice places to go for a mini break: I didn't read the fact that OP and daughter had been to them as a sort of open day-esque trailing about!