My girl has set her heart on Oxford or Cambridge. Encourage or ignore????

[Ilovemyrabbits]

DD is 12...I know, it's very young and she's got a long way to go before we seriously need to consider this BUT...she is a very determined young lady who becomes very focussed when she has a goal in mind. She is academic and does well at school but she's not always top of the class. She's not overly outgoing, but she mixes well when she needs to. She has told all her friends she wants to go to Oxford or Cambridge. Her Y6 teacher told her she could do this if she wanted to. In the teacher's defence, she has two daughters who have gone through the Oxbridge process successfully and I think she was trying to be encouraging.

I am torn here between wanting to encourage dd in her aims, because it's good to aim high, and wanting her to be grounded. She's quite a sensible girl, even at 12, but I'm trying to figure how to deal with this. Part of me thinks, keep quiet...it's a long way before the decisions need to be made and she may well adapt her plans by then. Another part of me thinks, she's stubborn and what do we do if she sticks with it?? Should we be encouraging her now? Asking teachers if she's capable? Or what????

Neither her dad nor I went to university, so I guess we're a little out of our comfort zone here. Does anyone have any advice for me????

No it isn't, not in context Moose but my posts here are pretty irrelevant.

Yellow

'Marni this has got everything to do with me being a cynic and has bugger all to do with my DC, though you mention them twice in succession, which is more than I've done.'

Just in the interests of accuracy (which I know you feel strongly about) you'd actually mentioned your DC 5 times in the thread up to that point. Including a reference to having 'sent' 4 of them to Oxford.

Ok Marni in the interests of accuracy (which yes is something I like) I'll trawl back through the thread. I expect I'll find you're correct about five mentions but I also expect I'll find nothing outrageously boasty, since I tend not to big my kids up. I did once but it was reasonable in the context, but it's not a habit at all.

Don't parents send their kids to a particular school? What then is the correct terminology for university? Do I/ did I drive them to Oxford? Do I/ did I stand on the sidelines disinterestedly and refuse to acknowledge success? I can't see that it's a particularly emotive or loaded term, sending. I expect I did actually play some peripheral part in their getting places at Oxford, or at least the SFE would suggest that I had a marginal hand. Whatever, I've given the OP the benefit of what I've learned in these past few years and she's been pretty dismissive, so fair's fair.

Well it is impressive to have 4 children in a family going to Oxford in this lottery day and age. I'm not convinced I've heard enough detail on how this came about actually yellowtip because you generally always sound very laid back about it. On reflection the school must have had a lot to do with it. And the DC themselves. But did they decide when they were 12? And how did they themselves approach the process?

I have been laid back funny, is completely the point! And yes definitely to school - they've been incredibly lucky. Still, no-one wants to hear that and I'm still only scanning p7. Must plod on!

As I assumed Marni, given how specific you were, you're absolutely correct. But then so am I:

1. June 4th: tried to show DC good alternative choices.
2. June 7th: tried to plug the merits of alternative choices.
3. June 10th: have sent 4 DC to Oxford despite lacking a vastly privileged background.
4. June 11th: (directly responding to angus). No I believe my DC are very different to OP's DD and finally
5. June 11th: my DC complain about having siblings.

Not exactly bigging them up Marni is it? And look at the absurd number of other posts I've made on this very long thread!

I didn't say you'd been boasty yellow. I was simply refuting the accusation you levelled at me about mentioning your DC when you hadn't.

FWIW I don't think for one moment that you've been pushy with your DC but that's because I genuinely take your posts at face value. That's all we can do on an anonymous online forum. And that's why I am so puzzled about your attitude to the OP on this thread.

'What is your own educational background OP? At what age did you leave school and what did you do then? ' is how the interrogation started Yellowtip.

After slating me for wanting to take dd to open days (which I'd never said was even a whisper of a thought) you then started asking for all sorts of details about whether she was state or grammar, what qualifications my siblings had taken, insisting how highly educated I was, despite my protests.

I gave information Yellowtips and I answered threads as they came in. If I've flogged my background to death, it's cos I feel like I'm under attack.

Read my comments. At no point have I said, DD wants to go to Oxford, how do I get her there. At no point have I said, DD will be crushed if she doesn't get there, what do I do. At no point have I said, I think DD is really sensible to set her heart on this at 12 years old. Now do take a biscuit or a glass of wine and just back off. I've had enough of you making personal comments about me, my family and my background.

Please don't discourage her, whether directly or subtly.

I decided I wanted to go to Oxford when I was 5. Everyone laughed.

I still wanted to go to Oxford when I was 16. Given that I was nowhere near straight As at O level (and didn't do 10 of them either, it was 7 or 8 I think) no-one thought I had a shot.

My parents were mostly non-committal, and I realise now that they were just worried about my being disappointed.

But at the time I experienced it as being unsupportive, and felt very, very alone as I struggled through my A levels (not straight As either). My school were mostly unsupportive, apart from two wonderful teachers who made it possible for me to live through that year, and helped me every step of the way.

In the end I did get to go to Oxford, and it was 3 absolutely wonderful years of my life. I loved it, and am so happy to have had the experience. I was the first person from my school ever to get in.

But if I hadn't got in, I would always have wondered if I could have made it if only my parents had been more supportive. Whereas I think if I felt that I had had every chance and I still hadn't made it I would have just gone 'oh, well, such is life'.

Ilove If it was me asking (and it never would be) I'd take the advice from the one person on the thread best qualified to give it. But that's just me. You seem determined to ignore Yellow and anybody else who doesnt immediately agree with what is clearly your position. It seems to me that every time someone advises you to back off and stop being so precious, you get all blustery about your background - I certainly don't doubt that you background is as you say it is, I do maintain that your background is hardly unusual especially given your age. It is, therefore, irrelevant.

Your initial question was framed as 'encourage or ignore'. For the avoidance of doubt, and speaking only for now, not for when your DD is say in Y11...ignore. Or, better yet, be neutral. This is not your life, it's hers. It's very easy to read some of the threads on mumsnet from some of the more pushy micromanagingmums and start to worry that this level of obsession is normal and healthy. It isn't. You will be much much more helpful to your DD if you don't fall into the trap of becoming mumzilla. You may not be happier yourself, you may never lose the itch to micromanage, but she will be happier. And better prepared for the real world.

Thank you Russians, again.

rabbits there's a lot to be said for not blaming the past and what could have been, since it hasn't been and now never will be. Moaning never helped anyone do anything other than feel worse.

On a forum like this there is not one expert. There are some self-appointed ones actually. There are contributions from those who attended Oxford and Cambridge universities reflecting on their time and experiences there some positive, some a little less so. There are contributions from other people who attended the universities which were the most highly ranked from their particular course of study. Many people have talked about the way in which their parents influenced - again, for better or worse - their educational choices. We've talked about the influence of schools and the way in which teenagers develop. There's been some debate on teenage reading and the study of English literature.

A point that hasn't been made explicitly - but which I was reflecting on - when I read some of the earlier contributions, was that when a young person goes further and is more successful than one of their peers it is often because one person has played a significant role in encouraging and enabling them. Sometimes it is a teacher, sometimes a parent, sometimes another adult.

Arguably a child from a middle-class professional background attending a school where it is expected that many/most/all students will go on to Russell Group universities and career success does not need this sort of individual mentoring. It is just everywhere. In the air.

However if your parents are - for example skilled manual workers or doing white collar job and you attend a school where many people go on to do vocational courses, rather than further academic study, you will need one or two people giving significant encouragement if you want to prioritise university eduation.

I agree Frau. I really don't think anyone should listen in totality to one poster's 'advice'however much expertise they say they have. MN works best for garnering a host of different opions which one can consider.

Frau I expect you noticed I participated in most of those elements of this thread? In particular the 'person who went to Cambridge from a disadvantaged working class background' element, and the 'books/value thereof' element.

I don't actually need you to tell me (through guessing?) what a kid from a disadvantaged working class background needs to help her get to Oxbridge. It's also not relevant in the case of this thread since that description doesn't fit OPs child. What is relevant is the fact that carrying the weight of living someone else's dream as well as your own isn't good for anyone from any background. I have seen so many kids/young people burdened in this way. The OP certainly doesn't give the impression of being beyond the point of no return in that respect yet - but she does give the impression of being looking at that path. And my advice is to take the other one. The sensible one.

Some advice from these self appointed/ so called experts is self evidently rubbish anyway.

yellow I think one should treat all advice given on t'internet with a degree of caution!

Even if an 'expert' has genuine credentials (which of course we can't verify) they only know what they know. None of us know everyhting about specialist subjects! There are bound to be aspects we've never come across.

For example, people ask me all the time in RL about getting an agent and a publisher. I can tell them what I know. I can tell them how it worked for me and lots of writers I know. But is the sum of all knowledge? Couldn't possibly be.

Especially the advice that talks about department ratings. ;)

I also think many things are so subjective, it's not really easy to say what the 'right' answer is.

We all bring so much of our own personality to any given situation. And of course our past experiences. This colours how we see things.

Anyone claiming to be the fount of all knowledge on any particular subject would be too dim to listen to word, I'd have thought.

What's the saying? The more I know, the more I realise how little I know?

That said, I suppose there are certain things one can dispute with absolute certainty. Usually when someone is saying somehting extreme!

Some advice from these self appointed/ so called experts is self evidently rubbish anyway.

That is spectacularly unhelpful!
The DD appears to come from a family where no-one has experience of higher education. OP feels ignorant and is trying to gain knowledge. To tell her that some of these posts are rubbish, but not to identify which ones, is not exactly adding to her understanding, is it?

Senua I think that's a slightly simplistic reading of the thread. And the OP has made a clear decision as to what advice she is going to listen to - she's going the confirmation bias route.

Obviously the comment wasn't thread specific nor even MN specific senua. The original question was very clearly a rhetorical one, if you read the thread.

What the jeff are you on about? I made a comment about one specific posting and get a comment back about my reading of the whole thread?

Obviously the comment wasn't ...

It wasn't at all obvious to me. But that must be my fault in the reading, not yours in the writing.