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Guest post: "The truth about the motherhood penalty and how to fix it"

130 replies

JuliaMumsnet · 15/03/2021 12:11

Founder of Pregnant Then Screwed Joeli Brearley on her new book about fixing the motherhood penalty:

"Since I launched Pregnant Then Screwed I have been astounded by the number of women who blame themselves when they are pushed out of their jobs because they became mothers. It’s as if they’re an extraordinary inconvenience to practically everybody; a walking, talking burden to business owners that should be grateful for whatever work they can get. They are treated as if it isn’t a baby they have given birth to but rather their own competence, and they believe it. So many mothers instinctively believe this lie, because that is the narrative we are subtly drip-fed. Sometimes it’s not that subtle, or that ‘drippy’ - like when Boris Johnson wrote an article in 2006 which stated that the children of working mothers are more likely to mug you, or when we discover that a third of employers believe that new mothers are generally less interested in career progression. One in three Brits think that mothers of children under the age of five shouldn’t be working, and only 7% think it’s okay for them to work full-time. The message is that mothers should shut up moaning about workplace discrimination because their real job is at home; why on earth should their employer make the workplace work for parents? After all, it was your choice to have a baby so you will just have to live with the consequences.

However, we don’t hear the same thing said about dads. I have never seen anyone suggest that the children of working fathers are more likely to mug you, and I imagine 100% of Brits think that it’s totally acceptable for a dad to be working full-time. In fact, not working full-time is probably seen as a dereliction of their duty. The fact is that in the majority of families, both parents need to work so that they can afford to pay their bills. In 2015–2016, 43% of children living with one working parent and one non-working parent were in relative income poverty, compared with 11% of children in two-earner households. It is a financial necessity for most mothers to work, yet we are surrounded by people telling us to get back to our real job of looking after the kids.

This narrative gives employers a get out of jail free card when it comes to treating women in the workplace differently. At Pregnant Then Screwed, we heard from a woman whose employer forced her to take a shot of vodka every morning to prove she wasn’t pregnant; a mother who returned from maternity leave to find that there was no record of her even existing and that someone else was doing her job; and a woman who informed her boss that she was pregnant only to be asked who the father was and whether she had considered an abortion. We heard from a woman on maternity leave who received an email sent to her by mistake which said ‘just sack her, she won’t cause a fuss, she’ll be too exhausted from caring for a newborn’, in addition to hearing from a woman who announced her pregnancy and from that point was bullied and harassed so viciously by her colleagues, that she went into labour prematurely. When she was in the neonatal clinic with her baby, who could have died, her boss called her and made her redundant.

This bias towards working mothers isn’t the only barrier women face when trying to have children and a career. Our wildly expensive childcare system, a severe lack of flexible working, a parental leave system that doesn’t encourage dads to take time out to care for their children, and the fact that women do 60% more of the cooking, cleaning and childcare (even when they earn the most money) means that many mums either find themselves being dragged back to the kitchen sink, or working in a role that is well below their pay and skill level.

The pandemic has shone a magnifying glass on many of these issues. Pregnant women and mothers are sidelined and ignored to the detriment of families and the economy. Well, it’s time for change, and change is possible - I’ve written a book about it; a book that will help you navigate all of these problems should they leap up and bite you on the bum, whilst also giving you the knowledge you need to take on this battle in your own surroundings. A book that will give you every response you need when some nit-wit says: ‘but it was your choice to have a child.’ A book that will make you realise that you are not a burden, you are a talented, dedicated, multi-tasking ninja, and you deserve to be treated with respect."

EDIT: Joeli will be coming back to the thread on Wednesday at 1pm to answer your questions.

Joeli Brearly is the founder of Pregnant Then Screwed. Her book Pregnant Then Screwed: The Truth About the Motherhood Penalty and How to Fix It is out now. You can find her on twitter @Joeli_Brearley.

Guest post: "The truth about the motherhood penalty and how to fix it"
OP posts:
EvilKinevil · 15/03/2021 12:42

Thanks Joeli. Will buy now.

CandyLeBonBon · 15/03/2021 14:04

I'm 51 now, but when my eldest, who is only 19 (and autistic) was 1, I had to make the decision to leave my corporate publishing job. I was earning £20k for 20 hours a week but my son wasn't thriving and my (now ex) husband refused to ask fir a more flexible work-life balance because he didn't want to damage his career prospects.

I ended up retraining as a childminder so that I could be there for my son, but still earn. I ended up working three jobs (and almost having a breakdown) - one of the employers I worked with - only 18 years ago, still asked me in my interview, whether I was planning on having any more children!

No-one asked my husband that,

I'm so so sick and tired of the relentless sexism women are still facing. I have been a single parent now for 10 years. I am studying a masters degree whilst working a nmw job in a supermarket.

How is this remotely fair?

I will be buying this book.

I wii

WarriorN · 15/03/2021 14:14

Wow thank you, it's truly shocking how mothers can be treated.

PinkElephant7 · 15/03/2021 19:36

I've written a blog about the motherhood penalty today coincidentally! Our patriarchal society wants to force mums to stay at home but leaves a pension gap and perpetuates poverty for women.

tilder · 15/03/2021 21:44

one of the employers I worked with - only 18 years ago, still asked me in my interview, whether I was planning on having any more children!

I was asked this 10 years ago. Dh has never been asked.

Young women have no idea.

alltoomuchrightnow · 15/03/2021 22:15

i was asked a few years ago, if i had children or was planning to. I was 46,. i posted about it on here.. in fact, I got asked in several job interviews that year... and I was really down about it because I'm infertile but also because it was so wildly inappropriate..

nodogz · 15/03/2021 23:06

I've spent a decade thinking I was going mad. Before children I could do no wrong at work, I was at least 15 years younger than others at my level.
Letter of risk of redundancy received the day after my maternity right to return to a post of equal standing. Next job, worked myself to illness to pretend I didn't have a child. Damaged myself permanently competing with men who all had a wife at home. I split the home-work with my husband but it wasn't an equal split. Still made redundant again. Never had another child. Work options were work away five days a week (practically impossible) or work in a job that paid 60% less
Took YEARS to understand it was structural inequalities that caused this. Not me. It's not that I wasn't clever enough, not hard working enough, not talented enough - I was a mother. Husbands career skyrocketed. I tried so hard. I broke myself. I've had to reassess my whole life. I honestly wish I'd never even tried or had a career. It wasn't worth it. The workplace is much harder then it was ten years ago thanks to londoncentric economy, austerity, Brexit and now covid.

I watched the (Swedish?) drama bonus family and the dad took paternity leave. I cried when I saw it, imagine how much headspace would be freed up if the dad looked after the baby after you went back to work. No thinking about pick up and drop off. If it was a parent penalty I can't help but think the world would be a bit fairer

Wowthisisreal · 16/03/2021 07:20

@alltoomuchrightnow... also illegal.

TaraRhu · 16/03/2021 08:19

Wonderful book that needed to be written. I have luckily not yet experienced the behaviour outlined in this book but I have seen it.

I posted in another topic about an architectural practice I once worked in run (depressingly) by four female directors. It was the least parent friendly place I've ever worked. They gave no enhanced maternity and their idea o flexibility was allowing people to go home at 5 rather than 5.30. Women (and men) with kids were routinely discriminated.

One was demoted from associate to senior level as she was not viewed as capable after her baby and returning part time.

The same woman was left out if all the best projects and given menial tasks. She put up with it because it's so hard to get part time work in our sector.

Another woman with 3 kids was routinely asked to work on her non contracted day to do public events. She was willing to do this at the weekend it in the evenings but had no childcare on a Friday. Routinely she was told her contract said that she was expected to work outside her hours so she needed to find childcare or risk her job. She received no extra pay.

A male colleague was badmouthed publicly by on of the directors for taking 3 weeks off when his son was born (2 of which were statutory paternity). She said over the phone in an open plan office that she 'didn't understand what he was playing at and was making her life extremely difficult by taking this time off. And she questioned his commitment to the job and whether he'd be employed much longer'

A further male colleague was chastised for refusing to do a tender over the weekend because his wife was away and he had two kids to look after. The director who was responsible for it had run out of time and was going climbing at the weekend. She told the guy he could do it when his kids were in bed. He refused and left soon after.

The only person who had kids and was accepted was a man who lived in London Monday to Friday and his family lived in the cotswalds. So he had no responsibilities during the week and was free to network or work every night.

Two of the directors had kids but clearly were happy with the status quo.

Worryingly, the practice was an active member of 'women on in architecture' a group supposed to promote women. One was a chair on another property group. They were so institutionalised and stuck in the pattern of make dominated work practices they were part of the problem not the solution.

This was 6 years ago. Not 20.

CandyLeBonBon · 16/03/2021 09:22

@TaraRhu

Wonderful book that needed to be written. I have luckily not yet experienced the behaviour outlined in this book but I have seen it.

I posted in another topic about an architectural practice I once worked in run (depressingly) by four female directors. It was the least parent friendly place I've ever worked. They gave no enhanced maternity and their idea o flexibility was allowing people to go home at 5 rather than 5.30. Women (and men) with kids were routinely discriminated.

One was demoted from associate to senior level as she was not viewed as capable after her baby and returning part time.

The same woman was left out if all the best projects and given menial tasks. She put up with it because it's so hard to get part time work in our sector.

Another woman with 3 kids was routinely asked to work on her non contracted day to do public events. She was willing to do this at the weekend it in the evenings but had no childcare on a Friday. Routinely she was told her contract said that she was expected to work outside her hours so she needed to find childcare or risk her job. She received no extra pay.

A male colleague was badmouthed publicly by on of the directors for taking 3 weeks off when his son was born (2 of which were statutory paternity). She said over the phone in an open plan office that she 'didn't understand what he was playing at and was making her life extremely difficult by taking this time off. And she questioned his commitment to the job and whether he'd be employed much longer'

A further male colleague was chastised for refusing to do a tender over the weekend because his wife was away and he had two kids to look after. The director who was responsible for it had run out of time and was going climbing at the weekend. She told the guy he could do it when his kids were in bed. He refused and left soon after.

The only person who had kids and was accepted was a man who lived in London Monday to Friday and his family lived in the cotswalds. So he had no responsibilities during the week and was free to network or work every night.

Two of the directors had kids but clearly were happy with the status quo.

Worryingly, the practice was an active member of 'women on in architecture' a group supposed to promote women. One was a chair on another property group. They were so institutionalised and stuck in the pattern of make dominated work practices they were part of the problem not the solution.

This was 6 years ago. Not 20.

That's abysmal. And illegal. Several tribunals-in-waiting there. I hope someone takes them to court.
Lentillover1900 · 16/03/2021 10:43

Finance industry here

I have to say that this doesn’t resonate with me at all. Not my experience or of other working mothers I know. The big corps at least are bending over backwards for us

Kpo58 · 16/03/2021 17:31

That's abysmal. And illegal. Several tribunals-in-waiting there. I hope someone takes them to court.

I can't see anyone taking them to court. They will either not have the money to do so or will find that they can never work again in that sector as they will be seen as a troublemaker. Sad

Feefsie · 16/03/2021 18:28

My kids are 19 and 14 and I’ve been routinely discriminated against and held back in my career. I am, and have always been the main earner. My husband isn’t ambitious and I work in IT so earnings potential higher. I never expected my established career to be derailed when I had kids. When my youngest was 5 months old I took a job that involved a lot of travelling. I negotiated a 4 day week and a pro-rata salary but I was still doing FT hours and more work than most of my male colleagues. I found out a few years ago that my male colleagues were earning £15k a year more than my FT salary. I left and moved into consultancy. The majority of my colleagues were female and we all worked 30 hours per week. Again carrying full time workloads but feeling grateful. This has gone on and on. Passed over for promotion, being grateful for flexible working, taking a reduced salary to work 8 to 3 a couple of days a week. WFH being treated as a benefit. Being told I ask for too much. My youngest has a recent life changing diagnosis of a neurodevelopment disorder. Now I’m in my 5Os doing a job I could do in my sleep. If we hadn’t needed the money I honestly wouldn’t have bothered.

CandyLeBonBon · 16/03/2021 18:51

@Kpo58

That's abysmal. And illegal. Several tribunals-in-waiting there. I hope someone takes them to court.

I can't see anyone taking them to court. They will either not have the money to do so or will find that they can never work again in that sector as they will be seen as a troublemaker. Sad

Well you don't need to gage money for employment tribunals - or at least I didn't when I took my ex employer to court
rainbowninja · 16/03/2021 23:04

I chose not to go back to work after having my DD, I didn't want to leave her but I had also started suffering from anxiety when pregnant and that contributed heavily to
my decision.

In retrospect I wish my employer had done more to support me and retain my skills (I had been in local govt for over 10 years).

My maternity leave was covered by a younger male grad and it felt like there was an assumption I wouldn't return. My DD is 6 now and I haven't been able to return to work. I volunteer and have done some courses (subsidised by the same local authority that I used to be employed by). It feels like after 10 years of investing in my employment/training etc they were quite happy to write me off.

IdleJoe · 17/03/2021 04:11

Hi

Need help with rehousing. Actually. Can't even make a cup of tea here without grief. Bad crap men and me with confidence problems.

babyyodaxmas · 17/03/2021 05:57

TaraRhu

DH is an architect, I am a hospital doctor and higher earner. He has had to deal with similar bullshit. Now works for himself.

Oblomov21 · 17/03/2021 06:12

This all is no surprise to me. Seriously depressing.

PandemicPalava · 17/03/2021 07:42

Wow what a great post and it sounds like a great book. So many women I know have a story like this, and I still now dd is 10 feel crippled by the pressure to work like I don't have a family and be a mother like I don't have a job. Thank you for tackling this topic

PandemicPalava · 17/03/2021 07:45

When I was pregnant I was sidelined because the all male management team made all the decisions while out networking during the week. I never returned after maternity leave as they made my hours impossible to juggle, would not consider flexible working or job share and childcare costs left me with about £100. Add it all together and it just pushes people out and back home.

On top of this, I do all the household stuff pretty much

ClearMountain · 17/03/2021 09:28

I was told verbally that my employer couldn’t accommodate my pregnancy because they couldn’t afford it. It would cost money to cover my time off etc. So I complained and got a solicitor. Obviously they said I’d got the wrong end of the stick and the reason my rolling contract was not being renewed was because there was less work available. They got away with it.

PersimmonTree · 17/03/2021 10:17

Very important topic that needs to be out there in the open. Even today it seems women can't win, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I went freelance when pregnant with my first, so avoided the workplace battlefield but then after being basically the sole breadwinner in a high-stress job for over a decade, I was forced by their father after the split to give him primary custody and then ostracised as an absent mother, for not fulfilling my designated gender role.

The judging of women and mothers - sadly IME most frequently by other, older women - has just got to stop.

I'll certainly be reading this book, and more importantly will be making sure my 17yo daughter reads it.

Lentillover1900 · 17/03/2021 10:44

@ClearMountain

I was told verbally that my employer couldn’t accommodate my pregnancy because they couldn’t afford it. It would cost money to cover my time off etc. So I complained and got a solicitor. Obviously they said I’d got the wrong end of the stick and the reason my rolling contract was not being renewed was because there was less work available. They got away with it.
But essentially the reason they said to your verbally And then the reason they have formally

Mean essentially the same. They couldn’t afford it.

Many small family run companies are on knife edge when it comes to financials.
Maternity leave. Cost of hiring to cover the period. Then accommodating flexible working etc
It can be a huge and sometimes impossible feat for some small businesses. It really can be

FanSpamTastic · 17/03/2021 11:16

I am 51, eldest is 19. I only had 6 months maternity leave and when returning asked for part time to be considered for a year while she was still so little - ideally 3 days but 4 would have great. It was refused as business could not manage apparently. So I resigned. They replaced me with a man - who was allowed to work 4 days a week - apparently he was already committed to some course on the other day (not related to the job!)!

This shafted my career for nearly 10 years and I have only recently managed to scrape my way back to the level I should have been at 10 years ago.

BlackRibboner · 17/03/2021 11:26

But I think a huge number of new mothers are less interested in career progression. Not forever, and not all, but anecdotally, I only know one other woman who is still looking for promotions or new jobs with a child or children under five. All my other peers have said that motherhood has given them new priorities, that they're comfortable with their level, that they aren't interested in jumping through the hoops of application, interview etc.

Of course there are societal issues and gender roles at play here, but I struggle enormously with the balance between allowing these intelligent, happy women to know their own minds and priorities, and addressing the assumption that new mums are less interested in work. Because often, they are. It's a horribly vicious cycle.