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Guest post: "The truth about the motherhood penalty and how to fix it"

130 replies

JuliaMumsnet · 15/03/2021 12:11

Founder of Pregnant Then Screwed Joeli Brearley on her new book about fixing the motherhood penalty:

"Since I launched Pregnant Then Screwed I have been astounded by the number of women who blame themselves when they are pushed out of their jobs because they became mothers. It’s as if they’re an extraordinary inconvenience to practically everybody; a walking, talking burden to business owners that should be grateful for whatever work they can get. They are treated as if it isn’t a baby they have given birth to but rather their own competence, and they believe it. So many mothers instinctively believe this lie, because that is the narrative we are subtly drip-fed. Sometimes it’s not that subtle, or that ‘drippy’ - like when Boris Johnson wrote an article in 2006 which stated that the children of working mothers are more likely to mug you, or when we discover that a third of employers believe that new mothers are generally less interested in career progression. One in three Brits think that mothers of children under the age of five shouldn’t be working, and only 7% think it’s okay for them to work full-time. The message is that mothers should shut up moaning about workplace discrimination because their real job is at home; why on earth should their employer make the workplace work for parents? After all, it was your choice to have a baby so you will just have to live with the consequences.

However, we don’t hear the same thing said about dads. I have never seen anyone suggest that the children of working fathers are more likely to mug you, and I imagine 100% of Brits think that it’s totally acceptable for a dad to be working full-time. In fact, not working full-time is probably seen as a dereliction of their duty. The fact is that in the majority of families, both parents need to work so that they can afford to pay their bills. In 2015–2016, 43% of children living with one working parent and one non-working parent were in relative income poverty, compared with 11% of children in two-earner households. It is a financial necessity for most mothers to work, yet we are surrounded by people telling us to get back to our real job of looking after the kids.

This narrative gives employers a get out of jail free card when it comes to treating women in the workplace differently. At Pregnant Then Screwed, we heard from a woman whose employer forced her to take a shot of vodka every morning to prove she wasn’t pregnant; a mother who returned from maternity leave to find that there was no record of her even existing and that someone else was doing her job; and a woman who informed her boss that she was pregnant only to be asked who the father was and whether she had considered an abortion. We heard from a woman on maternity leave who received an email sent to her by mistake which said ‘just sack her, she won’t cause a fuss, she’ll be too exhausted from caring for a newborn’, in addition to hearing from a woman who announced her pregnancy and from that point was bullied and harassed so viciously by her colleagues, that she went into labour prematurely. When she was in the neonatal clinic with her baby, who could have died, her boss called her and made her redundant.

This bias towards working mothers isn’t the only barrier women face when trying to have children and a career. Our wildly expensive childcare system, a severe lack of flexible working, a parental leave system that doesn’t encourage dads to take time out to care for their children, and the fact that women do 60% more of the cooking, cleaning and childcare (even when they earn the most money) means that many mums either find themselves being dragged back to the kitchen sink, or working in a role that is well below their pay and skill level.

The pandemic has shone a magnifying glass on many of these issues. Pregnant women and mothers are sidelined and ignored to the detriment of families and the economy. Well, it’s time for change, and change is possible - I’ve written a book about it; a book that will help you navigate all of these problems should they leap up and bite you on the bum, whilst also giving you the knowledge you need to take on this battle in your own surroundings. A book that will give you every response you need when some nit-wit says: ‘but it was your choice to have a child.’ A book that will make you realise that you are not a burden, you are a talented, dedicated, multi-tasking ninja, and you deserve to be treated with respect."

EDIT: Joeli will be coming back to the thread on Wednesday at 1pm to answer your questions.

Joeli Brearly is the founder of Pregnant Then Screwed. Her book Pregnant Then Screwed: The Truth About the Motherhood Penalty and How to Fix It is out now. You can find her on twitter @Joeli_Brearley.

Guest post: "The truth about the motherhood penalty and how to fix it"
OP posts:
PandemicPalava · 17/03/2021 11:33

@BlackRibboner do you think this may be partly because workplaces don't accommodate having a family, flexible working and career progression going hand-in-hand? One of the main reasons I don't plan on pursuing a career until my daughter is older is that I know I won't be able to commit my entire life to it. This doesn't mean that I don't want career progression it just means that the current model of career progression doesn't fit with having a family

BlackRibboner · 17/03/2021 12:08

@PandemicPalava, absolutely that will be part of it for a lot of women. But the colleagues and friends I'm thinking of work in very family friendly environments- people have been promoted while on mat leave, while working part time, take up of shared parental leave is high etc. They simply say that their priorities have shifted and they don't want to give more headspace to work than they absolutely have to.

I think there's a lot of ingrained societal expectation in that mindset, tbh - that women should be the ones at home, should be the primary caregivers, that it's for the men to forge ahead now etc. But how do you change those attitudes without decrying those women's positions as invalid? I shared parental leave with my husband and was the only one in my NCT group to do so. Proper, decent paternity leave (ie not a carve out of maternity leave) would absolutely help with this, but many women genuinely want to be the primary caregiver and see themselves as failing if they're not. Until women change this view of themselves and men are forced to step up, it will be difficult to force a change in employer attitudes.

PersimmonTree · 17/03/2021 12:20

@BlackRibboner

But I think a huge number of new mothers are less interested in career progression. Not forever, and not all, but anecdotally, I only know one other woman who is still looking for promotions or new jobs with a child or children under five. All my other peers have said that motherhood has given them new priorities, that they're comfortable with their level, that they aren't interested in jumping through the hoops of application, interview etc.

Of course there are societal issues and gender roles at play here, but I struggle enormously with the balance between allowing these intelligent, happy women to know their own minds and priorities, and addressing the assumption that new mums are less interested in work. Because often, they are. It's a horribly vicious cycle.

And why should they be interested in jumping through hoops, if they just get treated like crap after a few years while having paid £££ for childcare and carried the guilt of leaving their babies while earning peanuts?

Less interested in work? Perhaps they're just not interested in being exploited their entire lives and are more interested in a new, fairer, more flexible type of employment, one where they're more than just 19th-century wage slaves, and actually get some say in the contribution they make. Cooperation with employers not top-down dictatorship, then we'll see who's interested in working and who isn't. So many attitudes need to change.

BlackRibboner · 17/03/2021 12:34

@PersimmonTree Agreed, but not all employers are like that and the rewards can be well worth the extra effort. My point is more around the guilt of leaving their babies that you mention - why should they feel that guilt? Why are we so in thrall to this idea that being a good mum is prioritising time with the kids, to the detriment of career or social life, when we don't hold men to the same standard?

I want to be clear, I am not at all defending the horrific examples given in the OP, nor do I think those women who take a step back from work are wrong. And I agree a lot needs to change in the workplace. But even in the most progressive companies, it is overwhelmingly women who step down or stop pushing once children come along. And that begets the attitudes that then result in discrimination, overt or otherwise. I don't know how to change that deep rooted expectation while still allowing families to choose a model that works best for them - because overwhelmingly, that will be the woman stepping up at home and the man at work, and so it continues.

LApprentiSorcier · 17/03/2021 12:45

In my experience it's the mums who get all the concessions in the workplace while those without children are expected to absorb anything.

MagentaZebras · 17/03/2021 12:54

It's insidious and permeates every aspect of life. We are judged if we work, judged if we don't. The statistic that only 7% of the UK population do NOT believe it is wrong for a mother of pre-schoolers to work full time is absolutely shocking - the level of judgement!

I am a single parent so have to provide for my children. So I'm silently judged for working but would also be judged if I did not: we cannot win.

Add onto that that the tax system massively penalises single parents because the thresholds for losing child benefit, "tax-free childcare", 30 hours "free" childcare and all of the income tax thresholds are on an individual rather than household basis and... well. The discrimination is appalling and systemic.

NearlyAlwaysInsane · 17/03/2021 13:28

The judging of women and mothers - sadly IME most frequently by other, older women - has just got to stop.

This. In my workplace, which is part of a big industry, the successful women at the top mostly share one characteristic: no kids. When they manage people, they tend to be blind to parenthood as a factor in career progression (or lack of). And I can see the same pattern in some of the young women at my workplace who are advancing rapidly - they seem to have no weekends, email at all hours, a lot of after-work socialising that probably helps a lot with their career progression, and all sorts of things that I simply can't do - and to be honest do not want to do anymore.

prodella · 17/03/2021 14:15

I have the book and it's brilliant, really funny, sassy and packed with helpful info, whilst at the same time being so sobering at the crap we have to put up with. We are so badly treated by institutionalised misogyny, it's time we fight back. Thanks Joeli x

PersimmonTree · 17/03/2021 14:41

@BlackRibboner I don't know either.. Hoping the book will give us some ideas 🙂

CandyLeBonBon · 17/03/2021 15:53

@LApprentiSorcier

In my experience it's the mums who get all the concessions in the workplace while those without children are expected to absorb anything.
What are you expected to absorb? And what 'concessions' do you think women with children receive?
MaudTheInvincible · 17/03/2021 16:09

I watched some of this this morning; it's long so I'm doing it in stages. The first speaker, Mary Harrington, talks about how the dominant orthodoxy gives us no room or language for dealing with things like motherhood and dependency.

LApprentiSorcier · 17/03/2021 20:54

And what 'concessions' do you think women with children receive?

Being allowed to reduce their hours.
Being allowed to work flexibly due to childcare (yet no such flexibility for those with other caring responsibilities)
Option of unpaid parental leave
A year's worth of maternity leave

What are you expected to absorb?

All the last minute overtime/shift changes that people with children aren't able to do.
The work of people who have to be absent for childcare reasons

LApprentiSorcier · 17/03/2021 20:58

@LApprentiSorcier

And what 'concessions' do you think women with children receive?

Being allowed to reduce their hours.
Being allowed to work flexibly due to childcare (yet no such flexibility for those with other caring responsibilities)
Option of unpaid parental leave
A year's worth of maternity leave

What are you expected to absorb?

All the last minute overtime/shift changes that people with children aren't able to do.
The work of people who have to be absent for childcare reasons

To add - I'm not saying mums shouldn't get these things, but I think we should 'level up' for everyone else and remove the bias against non-mothers in the workplace.
AdoraBell · 17/03/2021 22:19

I actually stopped working before I was pregnant, that was to move overseas for DH’s work. So I swerved all the hassle and discrimination.

I’ll buy the book for my DDs, currently in Uni and not planning to have children, but I think they’ll need the information.

BraxtonChic · 17/03/2021 23:23

@LApprentiSorcier anyone can request flexible working, including reduction in hours, not just parents.

Or are you saying you work for a company that refuses requests from anyone but parents?

PearPickingPorky · 18/03/2021 07:13

@LApprentiSorcier

And what 'concessions' do you think women with children receive?

Being allowed to reduce their hours.
Being allowed to work flexibly due to childcare (yet no such flexibility for those with other caring responsibilities)
Option of unpaid parental leave
A year's worth of maternity leave

What are you expected to absorb?

All the last minute overtime/shift changes that people with children aren't able to do.
The work of people who have to be absent for childcare reasons

Sounds like your employer is pretty poor at managing rotas and workloads.

Don't blame mothers for that.

LApprentiSorcier · 18/03/2021 07:19

Don't blame mothers for that.

Where have I blamed mothers?

What I am saying is that if mothers are low on the ladder in the workplace, the childless woman is a rung below that. This probably isn't surprising as we are a minority - about 80% of women have children, so things are geared more towards them - but it doesn't mean we can't speak up and ask for change.

Sounds like your employer is pretty poor at managing rotas and workloads.

Yes - don't all the mother things complained about in the OP come down to poor management/practices?

Lentillover1900 · 18/03/2021 10:25

@LApprentiSorcier

Don't blame mothers for that.

Where have I blamed mothers?

What I am saying is that if mothers are low on the ladder in the workplace, the childless woman is a rung below that. This probably isn't surprising as we are a minority - about 80% of women have children, so things are geared more towards them - but it doesn't mean we can't speak up and ask for change.

Sounds like your employer is pretty poor at managing rotas and workloads.

Yes - don't all the mother things complained about in the OP come down to poor management/practices?

Childless mothers being a “rung below”

But that’s a gender issue in your workplace then. Alongside an issue again working mothers.

In short - your workplace sounds shite

LApprentiSorcier · 18/03/2021 12:03

In short - your workplace sounds shite

Yes, just like the workplaces mentioned in the OP, e.g.: At Pregnant Then Screwed, we heard from a woman whose employer forced her to take a shot of vodka every morning to prove she wasn’t pregnant

Unless I'm missing something, the point of the thread isn't for people to extol brilliant practices in their workplaces.

Januaryblue2020 · 18/03/2021 12:08

Yeah it's crap isn't it. I was forced out of my job thanks to a complex fixed term contract situ that meant they could (just about) legally not renew my contract, even though my job was subsequently advertised.
It's often not a straightforward case of being pregnant = being sacked. Theres plenty of women in unsecure work that just kind of 'disappears' once they have a baby. And sadly it's legal

pigletpie2177 · 18/03/2021 14:40

I'm a lawyer, and when I was pregnant with my first baby I worked for a firm which had an employment department but seemingly knew nothing about the law relating to discrimination.
First they told me that I would lose all of my holiday if I didn't use it before the baby was born, and then they tried to insist they were entitled to the birth certificate despite having my MATB1 form. I set them right on both fronts.

When I was on maternity leave, they decided to give bonuses due to the profits the previous financial year, when I was in work and hit all targets etc. I initially received nothing. I contacted my boss and was told that "they always sort out people on mat leave" and then received 1/5 of the lower end of the range - 1/9 of the highest amount awarded. I challenged that and received a really snotty letter where they were very defensive and doubled the amount - so still only 2/5 of the lower end.

They then emailed all staff to invite eligible employees to apply for promotion - but forgot (or "forgot") to include those on mat leave. I was one of about 4 people who actually fit the criteria.

By that point I'd already applied for other jobs and was awaiting a written offer pending reference, or I'd have taken them to tribunal. On reflection I wish I'd done it anyway. I see them writing sanctimonious posts on social media about International Women's Day and how much they value their female staff etc and it makes my blood boil.

1Morewineplease · 18/03/2021 19:55

Maybe, society should embrace women who are pregnant or who have just given birth.
Let's be brutally honest, men can't.
Maybe we should try to understand how a local baker feels when their star baker goes on mat leave and the baker, who earns not too much , has to pay mat leave but still has to pay for someone else to step in to provide the same service.
Maybe women should be granted extensive leave , say three to five years , paid for by the state , and not by struggling businesses,
I really think society needs a shake up on loads of issues.

Escapetab · 19/03/2021 02:14

Maybe we should try to understand how a local baker feels when their star baker goes on mat leave and the baker, who earns not too much , has to pay mat leave but still has to pay for someone else to step in to provide the same service.

But that's not what happens. He doesn't pay the mother on maternity leave. The state does.

interest12 · 19/03/2021 06:30

@BlackRibboner

But I think a huge number of new mothers are less interested in career progression. Not forever, and not all, but anecdotally, I only know one other woman who is still looking for promotions or new jobs with a child or children under five. All my other peers have said that motherhood has given them new priorities, that they're comfortable with their level, that they aren't interested in jumping through the hoops of application, interview etc.

Of course there are societal issues and gender roles at play here, but I struggle enormously with the balance between allowing these intelligent, happy women to know their own minds and priorities, and addressing the assumption that new mums are less interested in work. Because often, they are. It's a horribly vicious cycle.

That has not been my experience whatsoever. Do you think they may be saying this to save face, having been sidelined so pretend they suddenly no longer care?
interest12 · 19/03/2021 06:32

@1Morewineplease

Maybe, society should embrace women who are pregnant or who have just given birth. Let's be brutally honest, men can't. Maybe we should try to understand how a local baker feels when their star baker goes on mat leave and the baker, who earns not too much , has to pay mat leave but still has to pay for someone else to step in to provide the same service. Maybe women should be granted extensive leave , say three to five years , paid for by the state , and not by struggling businesses, I really think society needs a shake up on loads of issues.
Who says women want 3-5 years not working? I want to get back to my job and continue my career as soon as possible. I have other life goals outside of motherhood. What an ignorant comment
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