Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Guest posts

Guest post: "The truth about the motherhood penalty and how to fix it"

130 replies

JuliaMumsnet · 15/03/2021 12:11

Founder of Pregnant Then Screwed Joeli Brearley on her new book about fixing the motherhood penalty:

"Since I launched Pregnant Then Screwed I have been astounded by the number of women who blame themselves when they are pushed out of their jobs because they became mothers. It’s as if they’re an extraordinary inconvenience to practically everybody; a walking, talking burden to business owners that should be grateful for whatever work they can get. They are treated as if it isn’t a baby they have given birth to but rather their own competence, and they believe it. So many mothers instinctively believe this lie, because that is the narrative we are subtly drip-fed. Sometimes it’s not that subtle, or that ‘drippy’ - like when Boris Johnson wrote an article in 2006 which stated that the children of working mothers are more likely to mug you, or when we discover that a third of employers believe that new mothers are generally less interested in career progression. One in three Brits think that mothers of children under the age of five shouldn’t be working, and only 7% think it’s okay for them to work full-time. The message is that mothers should shut up moaning about workplace discrimination because their real job is at home; why on earth should their employer make the workplace work for parents? After all, it was your choice to have a baby so you will just have to live with the consequences.

However, we don’t hear the same thing said about dads. I have never seen anyone suggest that the children of working fathers are more likely to mug you, and I imagine 100% of Brits think that it’s totally acceptable for a dad to be working full-time. In fact, not working full-time is probably seen as a dereliction of their duty. The fact is that in the majority of families, both parents need to work so that they can afford to pay their bills. In 2015–2016, 43% of children living with one working parent and one non-working parent were in relative income poverty, compared with 11% of children in two-earner households. It is a financial necessity for most mothers to work, yet we are surrounded by people telling us to get back to our real job of looking after the kids.

This narrative gives employers a get out of jail free card when it comes to treating women in the workplace differently. At Pregnant Then Screwed, we heard from a woman whose employer forced her to take a shot of vodka every morning to prove she wasn’t pregnant; a mother who returned from maternity leave to find that there was no record of her even existing and that someone else was doing her job; and a woman who informed her boss that she was pregnant only to be asked who the father was and whether she had considered an abortion. We heard from a woman on maternity leave who received an email sent to her by mistake which said ‘just sack her, she won’t cause a fuss, she’ll be too exhausted from caring for a newborn’, in addition to hearing from a woman who announced her pregnancy and from that point was bullied and harassed so viciously by her colleagues, that she went into labour prematurely. When she was in the neonatal clinic with her baby, who could have died, her boss called her and made her redundant.

This bias towards working mothers isn’t the only barrier women face when trying to have children and a career. Our wildly expensive childcare system, a severe lack of flexible working, a parental leave system that doesn’t encourage dads to take time out to care for their children, and the fact that women do 60% more of the cooking, cleaning and childcare (even when they earn the most money) means that many mums either find themselves being dragged back to the kitchen sink, or working in a role that is well below their pay and skill level.

The pandemic has shone a magnifying glass on many of these issues. Pregnant women and mothers are sidelined and ignored to the detriment of families and the economy. Well, it’s time for change, and change is possible - I’ve written a book about it; a book that will help you navigate all of these problems should they leap up and bite you on the bum, whilst also giving you the knowledge you need to take on this battle in your own surroundings. A book that will give you every response you need when some nit-wit says: ‘but it was your choice to have a child.’ A book that will make you realise that you are not a burden, you are a talented, dedicated, multi-tasking ninja, and you deserve to be treated with respect."

EDIT: Joeli will be coming back to the thread on Wednesday at 1pm to answer your questions.

Joeli Brearly is the founder of Pregnant Then Screwed. Her book Pregnant Then Screwed: The Truth About the Motherhood Penalty and How to Fix It is out now. You can find her on twitter @Joeli_Brearley.

Guest post: "The truth about the motherhood penalty and how to fix it"
OP posts:
CandyLeBonBon · 19/03/2021 22:49

@LApprentiSorcier

I am sympathetic to your situation but hijacking the thread and saying it's unfair that mothers are given concessions that you don't have is unreasonable derailment.

Thank you for recognising the difficulty of my situation.

If this were A.N.Other poster's thread, I'd agree and probably wouldn't comment at all.

If this were an amateur Mumsnetter starting a campaign, I'd be supportive,

But this is a thread to advertise a book - a marketing thread for a professional author to promote her commercial product. I don't think it's unreasonable to criticise the premise of a product that's on sale to the general public.

It's specifically about the challenges women face in the workplace as a direct result of having children. If you want to highlight the problems childless women face in the workplace, then feel free to write about that. Right now you're detailing the thread.
LApprentiSorcier · 19/03/2021 23:16

Right now you're detailing the thread

I take issue with several points in the OP. 'Disagreeing' is not 'derailing.'

I imagine 100% of Brits think that it’s totally acceptable for a dad to be working full-time

No, not at all. I fully support the idea of house-husbands - I have one myself. I know others, with and without children. I advocate women breadwinners whether they are parents or not. I am British. Your assumptions are wrong - what is your source for the '100% of Brits' who 'support' this?

a severe lack of flexible working

In my experience, it's far easier for parents to obtain flexible working than any other group with caring responsibilities. Parents are the only group who have any kind of flexibility enshrined in legislation.

the fact that women do 60% more of the cooking, cleaning and childcare

Why? I accept that someone has to look after children, but as for cooking and cleaning - if you don't want to do it, then don't do it. So you have a messy house and basic meals - if your male partner doesn't like it, leave it until he gets so tired of it that he does the work himself. If he isn't bothered by a messy house and basic food, but you are, then, sorry, but you are choosing to cater to your own standards and tastes.

A book that will give you every response you need when some nit-wit says: ‘but it was your choice to have a child.’

Yes, some women are coerced into parenthood through threats of violence but this must surely and thankfully be a minority in the western world. For most women, it is a choice to become a parent. I object in the strongest possible terms to the offensive term 'nitwit' being applied to anyone who recognises this obvious truth.

minipie · 19/03/2021 23:28

@BlackRibboner

But I think a huge number of new mothers are less interested in career progression. Not forever, and not all, but anecdotally, I only know one other woman who is still looking for promotions or new jobs with a child or children under five. All my other peers have said that motherhood has given them new priorities, that they're comfortable with their level, that they aren't interested in jumping through the hoops of application, interview etc.

Of course there are societal issues and gender roles at play here, but I struggle enormously with the balance between allowing these intelligent, happy women to know their own minds and priorities, and addressing the assumption that new mums are less interested in work. Because often, they are. It's a horribly vicious cycle.

Maybe these women are just (temporarily) exhausted?

I wasn’t looking for promotions for several years after DC, because I wasn’t getting a proper night’s sleep for years.

Doesn’t mean I was never going to be interested in my career or promotion ever again.

The linear career structure is a huge problem.

CandyLeBonBon · 19/03/2021 23:57

@LApprentiSorcier

Right now you're detailing the thread

I take issue with several points in the OP. 'Disagreeing' is not 'derailing.'

I imagine 100% of Brits think that it’s totally acceptable for a dad to be working full-time

No, not at all. I fully support the idea of house-husbands - I have one myself. I know others, with and without children. I advocate women breadwinners whether they are parents or not. I am British. Your assumptions are wrong - what is your source for the '100% of Brits' who 'support' this?

a severe lack of flexible working

In my experience, it's far easier for parents to obtain flexible working than any other group with caring responsibilities. Parents are the only group who have any kind of flexibility enshrined in legislation.

the fact that women do 60% more of the cooking, cleaning and childcare

Why? I accept that someone has to look after children, but as for cooking and cleaning - if you don't want to do it, then don't do it. So you have a messy house and basic meals - if your male partner doesn't like it, leave it until he gets so tired of it that he does the work himself. If he isn't bothered by a messy house and basic food, but you are, then, sorry, but you are choosing to cater to your own standards and tastes.

A book that will give you every response you need when some nit-wit says: ‘but it was your choice to have a child.’

Yes, some women are coerced into parenthood through threats of violence but this must surely and thankfully be a minority in the western world. For most women, it is a choice to become a parent. I object in the strongest possible terms to the offensive term 'nitwit' being applied to anyone who recognises this obvious truth.

Frankly if you have no experience of children and childcare, as a working mother, you're not really in a position to be lecturing women on how having children affects their working choices are you?
LApprentiSorcier · 20/03/2021 00:15

Frankly if you have no experience of children and childcare, as a working mother, you're not really in a position to be lecturing women on how having children affects their working choices are you?

  • The OP has said she imagines 100% of 'Brits' accept working dads. I don't accept working dads. I have often, on this very forum, urged women not to give up their careers when children come along just because at this point in time they are the lower earner. If women keep doing this, the earning situation will never improve for women whether they are mums or not. I am a 'Brit'. Even in the highly unlikely event I am alone in my view, this means it is not true that 100% of 'Brits' accept working dads. My acceptance or otherwise of working dads has nothing to do with whether I am a mum myself - it's an opinion that anyone can agree or disagree with.
  • I have explained several times that parents have more flexibility enshrined in law than any other group. `This is a fact of law. It has nothing to do with being a parent or not.
  • Housework. Whether you are a parent or not, working or not, it is your choice how much or little housework you do.
  • Choice to be a parent. Show me evidence that more than 50% of women in the western world are forced to bear children against their will. You can't, because it's not the case. Again, this is a fact, not an issue of parenthood or non-parenthood.
LApprentiSorcier · 20/03/2021 01:40

I would finally add (sorry for 'hijacking' the thread, but the OP has really upset me and, frankly, my anger at it is keeping me awake) that if the OP has been focussed on the 'motherhood' examples in her research, while ignoring the plight of women in general, I am more than happy to give real-life examples of how a childfree woman suffers exactly the same detriments on the presumption that all women want to have children; but she experiences additional detrimental because however little in law there might be to protect the mother, there is NOTHING in law to protect the childless woman from being exploited left, right and centre.

And meanwhile, my elderly parents can go rot with their dementia and disabilities, because I was so outrageous as not to want children and my sister desperately wanted them but suffered multiple miscarriages, but, hey, it's all fine as long as the mums out there can get an hour off to attend their child's nativity play ...

LApprentiSorcier · 20/03/2021 02:21

How can the light that burned so brightly
Suddenly burn so pale?

Sad
LApprentiSorcier · 20/03/2021 03:51

Frankly if you have no experience of children and childcare, as a working mother, you're not really in a position to be lecturing women on how having children affects their working choices are you?

Oops, my ovaries have been tossed into a clinical waste bag. Terribly sorry for thinking I might still be allowed to have an opinion.

LApprentiSorcier · 20/03/2021 04:50
  • Cheerio, womb and ovaries - your existence brought me nothing but pain, but I bear no grudge - have fun y'all being incinerated.
  • What's that? My workplace rights are being incinerated too?
  • Oh, don't worry - there's a strong movement to eradicate 'the motherhood penalty'.
  • But I can't be a mother. Not possible, Captain. My reproductive organs went down the ole' swanney.
  • How do we know whether or not you can become pregnant? Unless you've got proof you're PG or an actual baby we can see, fuck you and your promotion prospects.
  • Oh, but I need some time with my elderly mum who's got dementia.
  • Tough shit. The government only lets you have time off work if you have an ovum that's successfully welcomed A.N.Other Sperm.
  • OK, that's totally fair. Sorry I bothered to exist.
LApprentiSorcier · 20/03/2021 05:49

You are probably thinking I am over-invested in this thread, but I cannot emphasise enough how strongly I repudiate the marginalisation of the childless woman.

A book like this simply adds to the societal trend - a woman is only valid if she reproduces.

This idea needs to be quelled, not added to by people seeking an easily-made £.

Lentillover1900 · 20/03/2021 06:20

@LApprentiSorcier

* You are probably thinking I am over-invested in this thread*

I don’t think I can recall less of an understatement in recent years

I honestly think you need to step away from this thread. Your bitterness is consuming you

Lentillover1900 · 20/03/2021 06:20

more of an understatement

Lentillover1900 · 20/03/2021 06:22

All issues aside
Seeing the times and content of your last posts.... it’s actually quite disturbing

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 20/03/2021 07:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes a deleted post.

CandyLeBonBon · 20/03/2021 08:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

LApprentiSorcier · 20/03/2021 11:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes a deleted post.

Lentillover1900 · 20/03/2021 11:43

Telling someone who disagrees with you that they are 'disturbed' is a rather convenient way of shutting them down.

It had more to do with fact you posted, despite no responses, at midnight, 1am, 2am, 3am, 4am, 5am and 6am!!

CandyLeBonBon · 20/03/2021 12:19

@Lentillover1900

*Telling someone who disagrees with you that they are 'disturbed' is a rather convenient way of shutting them down. *

It had more to do with fact you posted, despite no responses, at midnight, 1am, 2am, 3am, 4am, 5am and 6am!!

Quite!
CandyLeBonBon · 20/03/2021 12:24

@LApprentiSorcier I can tell you, as a woman who has worked as a mother, and as a child free woman, that I most definitely found being child free easier and with fewer hurdles to overcome to progress.

As I said, I'm sorry your experiences are causing you difficulties but ranting for 6 hours at a thread where women are discussing a book that addresses a particular issue of concern and telling everyone they are oppressing you is just not on. Write a book about your experiences. Tell the world about the injustice you face. You will also have an audience and no doubt a great deal of support. No one is saying you shouldn't talk about your issues. But you ARE hijacking this thread. I wish you luck with you situation.

Lentillover1900 · 20/03/2021 12:43

You forget that @LApprentiSorcier

The vast majority of working mothers would have also experienced being child free in the workplace. Not as though we haven’t been in your shoes. So we have the insight in to being both.

Hardbackwriter · 20/03/2021 15:38

@LApprentiSorcier have you actually applied for reduced hours to allow for your caring responsibilities?

In my team there was a widespread opinion that only parents are 'allowed' to work part-time, and several of my (female, child-free) colleagues were vocally annoyed about this. When my boss announced that I was going down to 4.5 days over 4 I saw the eyerolls. But then she announced that my male, child-free colleague was also going down to 4.5 days a week. Because we both put in flexible working requests. None of the people in my workplace who were adamant that only parents could do this had ever actually applied to do so (and I think a lot of them wouldn't actually want the reduced salary anyway).

JohannaC · 20/03/2021 19:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Worstyear2020 · 20/03/2021 22:09

Typical situation here. I am 47 now, on 60% of what I used to earn at 29 and paid 15k less than my male colleagues in the same team although they were there before me. This is the result of 9 years of career break after flexible hours was rejected. I was out of the house more than 11hrs a day with my baby who went to day nursery (2 hours car journey with me everyday), 24/7 weekly on call every month with 2 under 2, I didnt even have time to do everything that i supposed to do in a day hence I left my job.

It's been 5 years since I returned to work force, I lost my 2 previous jobs due to redundancy. I truely think I will never be where I was even though I have more skills than then. I have given up the whole career ladder thing now, what's the point if no on believe in me? I now doing some easy job on average wage, no stress, switch off on dot. My pension is small, I will have to rely on my husband's who salary has been doubled since I stayed at home for our kids.

JohannaC · 20/03/2021 22:15

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Worstyear2020 · 21/03/2021 06:00

I'm sorry to hear this, but another perspective is that you now have a stress free job but still a similar family income as your husband's salary has increased, which isn't a bad situation to be in

Not similar, 40% less.

Swipe left for the next trending thread