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Guest post: "The truth about the motherhood penalty and how to fix it"

130 replies

JuliaMumsnet · 15/03/2021 12:11

Founder of Pregnant Then Screwed Joeli Brearley on her new book about fixing the motherhood penalty:

"Since I launched Pregnant Then Screwed I have been astounded by the number of women who blame themselves when they are pushed out of their jobs because they became mothers. It’s as if they’re an extraordinary inconvenience to practically everybody; a walking, talking burden to business owners that should be grateful for whatever work they can get. They are treated as if it isn’t a baby they have given birth to but rather their own competence, and they believe it. So many mothers instinctively believe this lie, because that is the narrative we are subtly drip-fed. Sometimes it’s not that subtle, or that ‘drippy’ - like when Boris Johnson wrote an article in 2006 which stated that the children of working mothers are more likely to mug you, or when we discover that a third of employers believe that new mothers are generally less interested in career progression. One in three Brits think that mothers of children under the age of five shouldn’t be working, and only 7% think it’s okay for them to work full-time. The message is that mothers should shut up moaning about workplace discrimination because their real job is at home; why on earth should their employer make the workplace work for parents? After all, it was your choice to have a baby so you will just have to live with the consequences.

However, we don’t hear the same thing said about dads. I have never seen anyone suggest that the children of working fathers are more likely to mug you, and I imagine 100% of Brits think that it’s totally acceptable for a dad to be working full-time. In fact, not working full-time is probably seen as a dereliction of their duty. The fact is that in the majority of families, both parents need to work so that they can afford to pay their bills. In 2015–2016, 43% of children living with one working parent and one non-working parent were in relative income poverty, compared with 11% of children in two-earner households. It is a financial necessity for most mothers to work, yet we are surrounded by people telling us to get back to our real job of looking after the kids.

This narrative gives employers a get out of jail free card when it comes to treating women in the workplace differently. At Pregnant Then Screwed, we heard from a woman whose employer forced her to take a shot of vodka every morning to prove she wasn’t pregnant; a mother who returned from maternity leave to find that there was no record of her even existing and that someone else was doing her job; and a woman who informed her boss that she was pregnant only to be asked who the father was and whether she had considered an abortion. We heard from a woman on maternity leave who received an email sent to her by mistake which said ‘just sack her, she won’t cause a fuss, she’ll be too exhausted from caring for a newborn’, in addition to hearing from a woman who announced her pregnancy and from that point was bullied and harassed so viciously by her colleagues, that she went into labour prematurely. When she was in the neonatal clinic with her baby, who could have died, her boss called her and made her redundant.

This bias towards working mothers isn’t the only barrier women face when trying to have children and a career. Our wildly expensive childcare system, a severe lack of flexible working, a parental leave system that doesn’t encourage dads to take time out to care for their children, and the fact that women do 60% more of the cooking, cleaning and childcare (even when they earn the most money) means that many mums either find themselves being dragged back to the kitchen sink, or working in a role that is well below their pay and skill level.

The pandemic has shone a magnifying glass on many of these issues. Pregnant women and mothers are sidelined and ignored to the detriment of families and the economy. Well, it’s time for change, and change is possible - I’ve written a book about it; a book that will help you navigate all of these problems should they leap up and bite you on the bum, whilst also giving you the knowledge you need to take on this battle in your own surroundings. A book that will give you every response you need when some nit-wit says: ‘but it was your choice to have a child.’ A book that will make you realise that you are not a burden, you are a talented, dedicated, multi-tasking ninja, and you deserve to be treated with respect."

EDIT: Joeli will be coming back to the thread on Wednesday at 1pm to answer your questions.

Joeli Brearly is the founder of Pregnant Then Screwed. Her book Pregnant Then Screwed: The Truth About the Motherhood Penalty and How to Fix It is out now. You can find her on twitter @Joeli_Brearley.

Guest post: "The truth about the motherhood penalty and how to fix it"
OP posts:
Bloodypeacocks · 19/03/2021 07:19

My manager verbally agreed I could return to work doing 66% of my hours after baby came. Brilliant - I arranged childcare around this. Low paid, high skilled job but it was important to me because it fitted around my studies and the commute was tiny - and it was an interesting role.

But when baby came - she changed her mind! I nearly quit, but for the reasons above I did go back, found alternative childcare but only stayed a year as I really only wanted to work part-time.

The boss also rang me when my baby was 5 days old to ask me things that were detailed in my handover document and had been taught to my temp cover. There were other shenanigans but suffice to say her whole attitude changed once I returned to work. I was essentially treated as ‘less than’ by the boss -and some of the rest of the team.

At one point she was also irritated that I didn’t suddenly want to work FT when the business grew. But my job had always been PT (as that was all the business could afford...)

It stung more that this business owner was a mother herself. She just kept saying how her MIL was HER childcare. (And intimated that I should be magicking up a local, caring MIL to do my childcare...!)

Once I needed one day off to attend the child’s hospital appointment. She said my DH could do it. And he would have done - but he wasn’t always in the country so it was down to me.

I was really flexible when she needed me to switch my days - but she wasn’t when I needed to - and so it was never going to last!

I’ve since become a freelancer to avoid this kind of BS. I really miss working as part of a team and the relative job security, holiday pay etc but I enjoy the freedom that comes with being self-employed and I’ve managed to spend more time with my kids as a result.

Iamneverfull · 19/03/2021 14:26

I was once taken into a room with my manager and told she heard I was trying for a baby but it was my colleagues turn first as she was nearly 30 and married. I was 26 and not married and she didn't want both of us off at the same time. We were having fertility issues at the time and it was a very humiliating conversation, I'm so cross with myself for not taking it further. My colleague announced her pregnancy soon (actually my manager spread her news for her and a future colleague too) after and when she came to return my manager changed her hours to 4 short days instead of 3 knowing she wouldn't be able to do this so my colleague felt forced to hand in her notice.

Zig4zag · 19/03/2021 15:44

Quite often though women who choose to go back to their careers dont realise the impact on others. Flexible working is all good but it is normally the childless that puck up the slack.

Also once had a manager that thought she could do it all and turns out she couldn't and was a terrible manager (previously very good but was now really short, snappy in a rush to get home etc.. )
I know it's hard but having a child is a big lifestyle change and you have to be prepared for that. Things can't just pick up from where you left off unless you just give birth, leave child with dad or nanny and straight back to work with no caring duties.

CandyLeBonBon · 19/03/2021 16:39

@LApprentiSorcier
You can request flexible working for any reason. Not just because you are a parent. That includes other caring responsibilities.

It is up to the company whether they grant it or not but that is the same for parents.

If you are routinely picking up slack from other workers who are part time, then you have a management issue not a part time worker issue.

If you want to go part time, ask.

LApprentiSorcier · 19/03/2021 16:44

@CandyLeBonBon Yes, and pregnant women can request not to be asked to drink gin in the morning and not to be asked if they've considered an abortion. It's up to the company whether they act reasonably or not.

So, by your logic, what is the point of the thread? We are not talking about the theory of good practice in the workplace that everyone should be able to request and expect. We are talking about when this doesn't happen.

CandyLeBonBon · 19/03/2021 16:59

[quote LApprentiSorcier]@CandyLeBonBon Yes, and pregnant women can request not to be asked to drink gin in the morning and not to be asked if they've considered an abortion. It's up to the company whether they act reasonably or not.

So, by your logic, what is the point of the thread? We are not talking about the theory of good practice in the workplace that everyone should be able to request and expect. We are talking about when this doesn't happen.[/quote]
You were complaining that you feel you get the fuzzy end of the lollipop because parents get 'concessions'. I'm pointing out that there's nothing stopping you from asking for the same concessions. Your annoyance is misplaced.

LApprentiSorcier · 19/03/2021 17:05

I'm pointing out that there's nothing stopping you from asking for the same concessions.

There absolutely isn't but unfortunately there's nothing to stop them being denied.

There's nothing to stop pregnant women/mums asking for whatever they need, but the point this thread seems to be making is that they don't always get it

I'm saying the same goes for childless women, but in my experience we have it even worse.

CandyLeBonBon · 19/03/2021 18:10

@LApprentiSorcier

I'm pointing out that there's nothing stopping you from asking for the same concessions.

There absolutely isn't but unfortunately there's nothing to stop them being denied.

There's nothing to stop pregnant women/mums asking for whatever they need, but the point this thread seems to be making is that they don't always get it

I'm saying the same goes for childless women, but in my experience we have it even worse.

Ok. But that wasn't your original point. You basically came on here moaning that part time mums caused you a problem because you had to pick up their slack - that they got all the concessions and you came across as 'hard done by' because 'mums got it easier' (I'm paraphrasing.

I've pointed out that you are perfectly entitled to ask for the same concessions. And you may or may not get them. Just as parents may or may not get them.

And no. I don't believe childless women do have it worse. I believe you have a different set of wants that you might find harder to articulate, but no, I don't believe you have it worse than women who are overlooked/nit promoted/can't work etc because they have children.

If you have caring responsibilities, that's another conversation, but no. You don't have it worse and if you think you do, then you're in a much better position than a mother, to find an alternative job with an organisation that values you more. You absolutely have more flexibility. Just perhaps not with your current employer.

Lentillover1900 · 19/03/2021 18:22

[quote LApprentiSorcier]@CandyLeBonBon Yes, and pregnant women can request not to be asked to drink gin in the morning and not to be asked if they've considered an abortion. It's up to the company whether they act reasonably or not.

So, by your logic, what is the point of the thread? We are not talking about the theory of good practice in the workplace that everyone should be able to request and expect. We are talking about when this doesn't happen.[/quote]
On this thread? On this particular thread?
It’s about the motherhood fix
Specific to mothers

I’m not denying there are a whole host of others serious issues within the arena of employment. Indeed they are discussed at length on other threads.

But this thread? Well, it is specific

Lentillover1900 · 19/03/2021 18:23

Sorry addressed to @LApprentiSorcier

CandyLeBonBon · 19/03/2021 18:24

@Lentillover1900

Sorry addressed to *@LApprentiSorcier*
Haha I was just mentally flexing a response there and realised I should probably stand down @Lentillover1900 Grin
LApprentiSorcier · 19/03/2021 18:30

What you don't seem to understand is that childless women suffer most of these things too, because there's always a presumption that they might become pregnant but they get none of the benefits afforded to mothers, such as extended maternity leave, unpaid parental leave, term-time working, flexible hours etc.

Lentillover1900 · 19/03/2021 18:33

No one is denying that on this thread! No one.

That is a gender issue. Debated widely and deeply - on this very site.

This thread is a discussion about motherhood and employment.

LApprentiSorcier · 19/03/2021 18:42

@Lentillover1900

No one is denying that on this thread! No one.

That is a gender issue. Debated widely and deeply - on this very site.

This thread is a discussion about motherhood and employment.

But you seem to be overlooking the benefits that are heaped on mothers, as aforementioned. It's all very well saying that anyone can apply to work part-time but if your company is only interested in appearing 'family friendly' they will bend over backwards to accommodate the mothers, and ignore everyone else. And there's no facility to apply for extended time time off, as is granted to parents under various legislations. The whole thing reeks of 'I'm all right Jack'. If it were any other minority of 20% that was marginalised like this, there'd be an outcry, but the childless are expected to suck it up while everyone sympathises with the mothers.
PlanDeRaccordement · 19/03/2021 18:46

So is this a book advert? Where is the promised solution?

Mine is that I had the DCs and was off work only 12weeks per child. Don’t stop full time work. Don’t pretend you can disappear for months on end and it not affect your lifetime earnings.

The same motherhood penalty has happened to the SAHDs I know of. So it is really a SAHP penalty in my opinion.

Lentillover1900 · 19/03/2021 18:56

No facility to apply for extended time off?

Uk law

* As an employee you’re allowed time off to deal with an emergency involving a dependant.*

A dependant could be a spouse, partner, child, grandchild, parent, or someone who depends on you for care.

Are you referring to extended time off for... what? A sabbatical to study?

LApprentiSorcier · 19/03/2021 18:58

@Lentillover1900

No facility to apply for extended time off?

Uk law

* As an employee you’re allowed time off to deal with an emergency involving a dependant.*

A dependant could be a spouse, partner, child, grandchild, parent, or someone who depends on you for care.

Are you referring to extended time off for... what? A sabbatical to study?

Really to spend time with my elderly parents who need support, and take some of the burden from my sister (I live at distance from them). But it's not an emergency situation, so there is nothing to cover it.
Lentillover1900 · 19/03/2021 19:01

* This includes mental or physical illnesses that don’t have to be life-threatening or need full-time care - it could be an existing condition that has worsened.*

For example, if a dependant is mugged without being physically hurt, you could take time off to comfort or help them.

You can also take time off to arrange longer term care for a dependant.

If you elderly parents need supper - then it seem it would fall under this late

LApprentiSorcier · 19/03/2021 19:33

If you elderly parents need supper - then it seem it would fall under this

You would think so, but try telling my employer that.

Escapetab · 19/03/2021 19:43

But you seem to be overlooking the benefits that are heaped on mothers, as aforementioned.

But they are benefits based on an actual need.

The same of course should apply to people with other caring responsibilities.
But they are not benefits "heaped on mothers" because mothers enjoy a higher status or something. They are to respond to a care need.

If you feel there should be better legislation to accommodate non-parental care responsibilities, fair enough. If you feel your workplace is shitty and under-resourcing and therefore childless women are used to pick up the slack for parental benefits when your employer should be planning better, say that. But why come on a thread about mothers trying to advocate for themselves and say no, you can't say that, because other people also have needs?

LApprentiSorcier · 19/03/2021 20:19

But why come on a thread about mothers trying to advocate for themselves and say no, you can't say that, because other people also have needs

I haven't at any point said they 'can't say that'. I just don't agree with the premise of the OP's book - 'the motherhood penalty'. It ignores the fact that most of this 'penalty' applies equally to non-mothers, and also the fact that mothers have a considerable amount of compensation - I don't disagree that leave/flexibility provisions are based on genuine need, but other genuine needs are overlooked. In short, I do not believe you are penalised specifically for being a mother. You are penalised for being of the sex that can potentially bear children. Women who do bear children do get some compensation for this in the form of the things I've mentioned. Women who don't bear children get all the same shit and none of the mitigation.

Lentillover1900 · 19/03/2021 20:46

@LApprentiSorcier

If you elderly parents need supper - then it seem it would fall under this

You would think so, but try telling my employer that.

You have a bad employer It’s understandably making you very bitter and angry
LApprentiSorcier · 19/03/2021 21:00

It’s understandably making you very bitter and angry

Well, maybe. My mum is ill at the moment and it's been on my mind a lot because so many of my colleagues have had significant amounts of time off for childcare reasons during Covid, and the contrast/division between childcare being 'sacred' whereas other caring responsibilities don't matter seems to have been heightened by the pandemic. I get a bit tired of a society where more and more is given to people who already have so much (relatively).

CandyLeBonBon · 19/03/2021 21:30

@LApprentiSorcier

But why come on a thread about mothers trying to advocate for themselves and say no, you can't say that, because other people also have needs

I haven't at any point said they 'can't say that'. I just don't agree with the premise of the OP's book - 'the motherhood penalty'. It ignores the fact that most of this 'penalty' applies equally to non-mothers, and also the fact that mothers have a considerable amount of compensation - I don't disagree that leave/flexibility provisions are based on genuine need, but other genuine needs are overlooked. In short, I do not believe you are penalised specifically for being a mother. You are penalised for being of the sex that can potentially bear children. Women who do bear children do get some compensation for this in the form of the things I've mentioned. Women who don't bear children get all the same shit and none of the mitigation.

Oh dear. This is another false equivalency issue.

Yes. You're right. You as a childless woman with caring responsibilities have the need for flexible working in a patriarchal society that does not favour women because women are most likely to be in caring roles, either for children or ageing parents.

But this was a thread about mothers.

It's like #notallmen and #alllivesmatter

No one is saying your concerns aren't valid, but this thread was specifically about the problems faced as an employed mother.

I am sympathetic to your situation but hijacking the thread and saying it's unfair that mothers are given concessions that you don't have is unreasonable derailment.

LApprentiSorcier · 19/03/2021 22:12

I am sympathetic to your situation but hijacking the thread and saying it's unfair that mothers are given concessions that you don't have is unreasonable derailment.

Thank you for recognising the difficulty of my situation.

If this were A.N.Other poster's thread, I'd agree and probably wouldn't comment at all.

If this were an amateur Mumsnetter starting a campaign, I'd be supportive,

But this is a thread to advertise a book - a marketing thread for a professional author to promote her commercial product. I don't think it's unreasonable to criticise the premise of a product that's on sale to the general public.

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