Guest post: "The truth about the motherhood penalty and how to fix it"

[JuliaMumsnet]

Founder of Pregnant Then Screwed Joeli Brearley on her new book about fixing the motherhood penalty:

"Since I launched Pregnant Then Screwed I have been astounded by the number of women who blame themselves when they are pushed out of their jobs because they became mothers. It’s as if they’re an extraordinary inconvenience to practically everybody; a walking, talking burden to business owners that should be grateful for whatever work they can get. They are treated as if it isn’t a baby they have given birth to but rather their own competence, and they believe it. So many mothers instinctively believe this lie, because that is the narrative we are subtly drip-fed. Sometimes it’s not that subtle, or that ‘drippy’ - like when Boris Johnson wrote an article in 2006 which stated that the children of working mothers are more likely to mug you, or when we discover that a third of employers believe that new mothers are generally less interested in career progression. One in three Brits think that mothers of children under the age of five shouldn’t be working, and only 7% think it’s okay for them to work full-time. The message is that mothers should shut up moaning about workplace discrimination because their real job is at home; why on earth should their employer make the workplace work for parents? After all, it was your choice to have a baby so you will just have to live with the consequences.

However, we don’t hear the same thing said about dads. I have never seen anyone suggest that the children of working fathers are more likely to mug you, and I imagine 100% of Brits think that it’s totally acceptable for a dad to be working full-time. In fact, not working full-time is probably seen as a dereliction of their duty. The fact is that in the majority of families, both parents need to work so that they can afford to pay their bills. In 2015–2016, 43% of children living with one working parent and one non-working parent were in relative income poverty, compared with 11% of children in two-earner households. It is a financial necessity for most mothers to work, yet we are surrounded by people telling us to get back to our real job of looking after the kids.

This narrative gives employers a get out of jail free card when it comes to treating women in the workplace differently. At Pregnant Then Screwed, we heard from a woman whose employer forced her to take a shot of vodka every morning to prove she wasn’t pregnant; a mother who returned from maternity leave to find that there was no record of her even existing and that someone else was doing her job; and a woman who informed her boss that she was pregnant only to be asked who the father was and whether she had considered an abortion. We heard from a woman on maternity leave who received an email sent to her by mistake which said ‘just sack her, she won’t cause a fuss, she’ll be too exhausted from caring for a newborn’, in addition to hearing from a woman who announced her pregnancy and from that point was bullied and harassed so viciously by her colleagues, that she went into labour prematurely. When she was in the neonatal clinic with her baby, who could have died, her boss called her and made her redundant.

This bias towards working mothers isn’t the only barrier women face when trying to have children and a career. Our wildly expensive childcare system, a severe lack of flexible working, a parental leave system that doesn’t encourage dads to take time out to care for their children, and the fact that women do 60% more of the cooking, cleaning and childcare (even when they earn the most money) means that many mums either find themselves being dragged back to the kitchen sink, or working in a role that is well below their pay and skill level.

The pandemic has shone a magnifying glass on many of these issues. Pregnant women and mothers are sidelined and ignored to the detriment of families and the economy. Well, it’s time for change, and change is possible - I’ve written a book about it; a book that will help you navigate all of these problems should they leap up and bite you on the bum, whilst also giving you the knowledge you need to take on this battle in your own surroundings. A book that will give you every response you need when some nit-wit says: ‘but it was your choice to have a child.’ A book that will make you realise that you are not a burden, you are a talented, dedicated, multi-tasking ninja, and you deserve to be treated with respect."

EDIT: Joeli will be coming back to the thread on Wednesday at 1pm to answer your questions.

Joeli Brearly is the founder of Pregnant Then Screwed. Her book Pregnant Then Screwed: The Truth About the Motherhood Penalty and How to Fix It is out now. You can find her on twitter @Joeli_Brearley.

Sorry, yes for house income. I do feel lucky but soul destroying at the same time.

*Typical situation here. I am 47 now, on 60% of what I used to earn at 29 and paid 15k less than my male colleagues in the same team although they were there before me. This is the result of 9 years of career break after flexible hours was rejected. I was out of the house more than 11hrs a day with my baby who went to day nursery (2 hours car journey with me everyday), 24/7 weekly on call every month with 2 under 2, I didnt even have time to do everything that i supposed to do in a day hence I left my job.

It's been 5 years since I returned to work force, I lost my 2 previous jobs due to redundancy. I truely think I will never be where I was even though I have more skills than then. I have given up the whole career ladder thing now, what's the point if no on believe in me? I now doing some easy job on average wage, no stress, switch off on dot. My pension is small, I will have to rely on my husband's who salary has been doubled since I stayed at home for our kids.*

I think this post more than any other encapsulates the issue. Worstyear2020 has another 20 years of work ahead, it's great pity if she is treading water for all of that. A pity for her, but also society's loss, less tax, less spending power and ultimately the potential should her marriage fail that she will be reliant on the state in old age. All because her employers refused a flexible working request.

I have to ask though, did your DH also request flexible working/ reduced hours when your DC were young ? We tried hard to share the burden of care and it was difficult at times. DH works in a very male dominated industry.

Gosh LApprentiSorcier, what an utterly bizarre rant.

You are wrong about all women being treated the same regardless of whether they have children or not. Yes, there is sexism and often women of fertile age are treated differently than men because they might get pregnant, but this book is primarily about how the treatment women have been getting changes as a result of getting pregnant, and having a baby. That it was different to before, when they were a child-free woman.

The OP has said she imagines 100% of 'Brits' accept working dads. I don't accept working dads.

What do you mean you don't "accept" working dads? You don't think dads should work? Or do you just mean you are supportive of men who choose not to work or work full-time?

Yes, I think they probably are! You make a good point about linear career structure, I haven't considered that side of things before. How do you think that could work differently?

To the PP who suggested my friends are saying they're not interested because they've already been sidelined, these are close friends and I'm as sure as I can be that this isn't the case. I'm glad it's not your experience - and I know I can only talk about what I've seen, which may not be representative- but of the 12 immediate peers who I knew before and after children, only two have returned to full time roles and only one still talks about future opportunities. All will tell you it's their choice and what they feel happiest with. And more than a few raise an eyebrow at my decision to continue full time work and go back at 7 months.

I am really hopeful that the pandemic will force a permanent change for many workplaces. The set up at the moment just doesn't work - for mothers in particular, but as PPs have said, for SAHPs and those with wider caring responsibilities too.

Sorry, that was aimed @minipie, who pointed out that new mothers may well be exhausted.

The women around me worked around the kids. Before I got pregnant, I'd said no to a promotion as I wanted children. I was made redundant from my job and got a poorly paid job at a school. I didn't believe in my core that I could have both.

Fast forward to pregnancy, we had twins so I had to leave the poorly paid job as we couldn't afford childcare. I've been a stay at home mum for 3 years. Kids are going to nursery soon and I am desperate to have my own career and life again.

You have to be really safe career wise for kids not to impact your income, and even then you're not safe. It also takes a while to reach this place of safety. I had my kids relatively young at 31. Many of my friends on a higher income are 34 and don't have kids.

I felt it was a choice I had to make. Kids or career. I chose kids and now I want a career. It's improved my skills tenfold. I would 100% chose me with kids if I was an employer rather than me before kids. It's a lack of awareness about how hard motherhood is and how it changes people.

@chocolatesweets

The women around me worked around the kids. Before I got pregnant, I'd said no to a promotion as I wanted children. I was made redundant from my job and got a poorly paid job at a school. I didn't believe in my core that I could have both.

Fast forward to pregnancy, we had twins so I had to leave the poorly paid job as we couldn't afford childcare. I've been a stay at home mum for 3 years. Kids are going to nursery soon and I am desperate to have my own career and life again.

You have to be really safe career wise for kids not to impact your income, and even then you're not safe. It also takes a while to reach this place of safety. I had my kids relatively young at 31. Many of my friends on a higher income are 34 and don't have kids.

I felt it was a choice I had to make. Kids or career. I chose kids and now I want a career. It's improved my skills tenfold. I would 100% chose me with kids if I was an employer rather than me before kids. It's a lack of awareness about how hard motherhood is and how it changes people.

Yes! Totally. So many of the skills we develop in motherhood are hugely valuable in the workplace (managing difficult stakeholders/customers, effective multitasking) and the attitude that many working mothers bring is so productive - we get in, get the job done, quickly work out what’s crucial and what’s just noise, and when we know we’re onto a good thing with our current employer we work bloody hard because we can no longer on any level afford to lose a good arrangement.

But people variously don’t see/believe that or are squeamish talking about it.

Hi everybody. I am here until 2pm to answer any questions you might have about Pregnant Then Screwed, the motherhood penalty or anything related to my book

I'd be really interested for your thoughts on the points I raised previously about how the tax system discriminates against single parents (with tax free allowance, tax thresholds and the thresholds for eligibility for tax-free childcare and child benefit all being based on individual income basis not the household, whoch massively favours dual parent households). Should there be exemptions to double such thresholds for single parents? What can be done to campaign for this? Recent data shows single parents were hit hardest by the pandemic - almost all women - so surely this should be prioritised?

I feel that this financial discrimination is an essential part of the motherhood penalty and if we want to fix it, cannot be ignored any longer.

@CandyLeBonBon

I'm 51 now, but when my eldest, who is only 19 (and autistic) was 1, I had to make the decision to leave my corporate publishing job. I was earning £20k for 20 hours a week but my son wasn't thriving and my (now ex) husband refused to ask fir a more flexible work-life balance because he didn't want to damage his career prospects.

I ended up retraining as a childminder so that I could be there for my son, but still earn. I ended up working three jobs (and almost having a breakdown) - one of the employers I worked with - only 18 years ago, still asked me in my interview, whether I was planning on having any more children!

No-one asked my husband that,

I'm so so sick and tired of the relentless sexism women are still facing. I have been a single parent now for 10 years. I am studying a masters degree whilst working a nmw job in a supermarket.

How is this remotely fair?

I will be buying this book.

I wii

@CandyLeBonBon there's a section in the book on the challenges faced by mothers who have a child with a disability. It is so hard. Everything works against you which is why 84% of mothers with disabled children do not work - it's not that they don't want to, the system makes it impossible. It sounds like you have done yourself and your son proud

@MagentaZebras

I'd be really interested for your thoughts on the points I raised previously about how the tax system discriminates against single parents (with tax free allowance, tax thresholds and the thresholds for eligibility for tax-free childcare and child benefit all being based on individual income basis not the household, whoch massively favours dual parent households). Should there be exemptions to double such thresholds for single parents? What can be done to campaign for this? Recent data shows single parents were hit hardest by the pandemic - almost all women - so surely this should be prioritised?

I definitely agree that more needs to be done to consider the specific issues faced by lone parent families in terms of the tax system. This is something Gingerbread campaign hard on and it is also something the Women's Budget Group research in real detail. We are a tiny team (equivalent of 2 full time staff) so there are limited issues we can campaign on as each campaign is incredibly time consuming. Our core campaign areas are: Childcare, paternity leave, flexible working and access to justice as we believe these are the pillars for radical change. But we support other organisations and individuals who lead on campaigns relevant to the work that we do - that would include any active campaign related to a tax system which discriminates against lone parents.

@alltoomuchrightnow

i was asked a few years ago, if i had children or was planning to. I was 46,. i posted about it on here.. in fact, I got asked in several job interviews that year... and I was really down about it because I'm infertile but also because it was so wildly inappropriate..

@alltoomuchrightnow It is also illegal. Did you have the opportunity to say how hurtful and inappropriate it was? It's so difficult when you are in an interview to do that; which is part of the reason why I think employers feel comfortable to ask

@nodogz

I've spent a decade thinking I was going mad. Before children I could do no wrong at work, I was at least 15 years younger than others at my level. Letter of risk of redundancy received the day after my maternity right to return to a post of equal standing. Next job, worked myself to illness to pretend I didn't have a child. Damaged myself permanently competing with men who all had a wife at home. I split the home-work with my husband but it wasn't an equal split. Still made redundant again. Never had another child. Work options were work away five days a week (practically impossible) or work in a job that paid 60% less Took YEARS to understand it was structural inequalities that caused this. Not me. It's not that I wasn't clever enough, not hard working enough, not talented enough - I was a mother. Husbands career skyrocketed. I tried so hard. I broke myself. I've had to reassess my whole life. I honestly wish I'd never even tried or had a career. It wasn't worth it. The workplace is much harder then it was ten years ago thanks to londoncentric economy, austerity, Brexit and now covid.

I watched the (Swedish?) drama bonus family and the dad took paternity leave. I cried when I saw it, imagine how much headspace would be freed up if the dad looked after the baby after you went back to work. No thinking about pick up and drop off. If it was a parent penalty I can't help but think the world would be a bit fairer

@nodogz Absolutely - All of this! I couldn't agree more

@TaraRhu

Wonderful book that needed to be written. I have luckily not yet experienced the behaviour outlined in this book but I have seen it.

I posted in another topic about an architectural practice I once worked in run (depressingly) by four female directors. It was the least parent friendly place I've ever worked. They gave no enhanced maternity and their idea o flexibility was allowing people to go home at 5 rather than 5.30. Women (and men) with kids were routinely discriminated.

One was demoted from associate to senior level as she was not viewed as capable after her baby and returning part time.

The same woman was left out if all the best projects and given menial tasks. She put up with it because it's so hard to get part time work in our sector.

Another woman with 3 kids was routinely asked to work on her non contracted day to do public events. She was willing to do this at the weekend it in the evenings but had no childcare on a Friday. Routinely she was told her contract said that she was expected to work outside her hours so she needed to find childcare or risk her job. She received no extra pay.

A male colleague was badmouthed publicly by on of the directors for taking 3 weeks off when his son was born (2 of which were statutory paternity). She said over the phone in an open plan office that she 'didn't understand what he was playing at and was making her life extremely difficult by taking this time off. And she questioned his commitment to the job and whether he'd be employed much longer'

A further male colleague was chastised for refusing to do a tender over the weekend because his wife was away and he had two kids to look after. The director who was responsible for it had run out of time and was going climbing at the weekend. She told the guy he could do it when his kids were in bed. He refused and left soon after.

The only person who had kids and was accepted was a man who lived in London Monday to Friday and his family lived in the cotswalds. So he had no responsibilities during the week and was free to network or work every night.

Two of the directors had kids but clearly were happy with the status quo.

Worryingly, the practice was an active member of 'women on in architecture' a group supposed to promote women. One was a chair on another property group. They were so institutionalised and stuck in the pattern of make dominated work practices they were part of the problem not the solution.

This was 6 years ago. Not 20.

@TaraRhu Sadly, women can be just as bad as men at discriminating. It was a woman who sacked me when I was 4 months pregnant. You've said it all there - they are institutionalised to believe that the way men work is the only way to work and that the perfect worker is the one who is unencumbered, when the reality is that parents bring so much to a workforce

@Lentillover1900

Finance industry here

I have to say that this doesn’t resonate with me at all. Not my experience or of other working mothers I know. The big corps at least are bending over backwards for us

@Lentillover1900That's really good to hear! I'm sorry to say though that the finance sector is notoriously bad for discriminating against women when they have children. In the research conducted by the Equality and Human Rights Commission in 2016 they came out as the worst sector for the mistreatment of new mothers

@Feefsie

My kids are 19 and 14 and I’ve been routinely discriminated against and held back in my career. I am, and have always been the main earner. My husband isn’t ambitious and I work in IT so earnings potential higher. I never expected my established career to be derailed when I had kids. When my youngest was 5 months old I took a job that involved a lot of travelling. I negotiated a 4 day week and a pro-rata salary but I was still doing FT hours and more work than most of my male colleagues. I found out a few years ago that my male colleagues were earning £15k a year more than my FT salary. I left and moved into consultancy. The majority of my colleagues were female and we all worked 30 hours per week. Again carrying full time workloads but feeling grateful. This has gone on and on. Passed over for promotion, being grateful for flexible working, taking a reduced salary to work 8 to 3 a couple of days a week. WFH being treated as a benefit. Being told I ask for too much. My youngest has a recent life changing diagnosis of a neurodevelopment disorder. Now I’m in my 5Os doing a job I could do in my sleep. If we hadn’t needed the money I honestly wouldn’t have bothered.

@feefsie What is so crazy about this notion that we 'ask for too much' is that flexible working has been proven time and time again to have enormous benefits for companies - I would argue it is more beneficial for employers than employees, yet still they make out that we are asking for the world! It's madness. I am so sorry to hear about all your crapy experiences at work that are not at all your fault and demonstrate how we've become brain washed to believe that an unencumbered worker is the perfect worker

@rainbowninja

I chose not to go back to work after having my DD, I didn't want to leave her but I had also started suffering from anxiety when pregnant and that contributed heavily to my decision.

In retrospect I wish my employer had done more to support me and retain my skills (I had been in local govt for over 10 years).

My maternity leave was covered by a younger male grad and it felt like there was an assumption I wouldn't return. My DD is 6 now and I haven't been able to return to work. I volunteer and have done some courses (subsidised by the same local authority that I used to be employed by). It feels like after 10 years of investing in my employment/training etc they were quite happy to write me off.

@rainbowninjaI I hear this so often. In July we will be running an online programme to help rebuild confidence and to find work that works for you and there will be the opportunity to have your own career advisor so keep your eye on our social feeds for more info

@JoeliBrearleyGuestPost we all appreciate the work you're doing. However I'd argue the financial discrimination is a HUGE factor in the struggles of single parents and should be prioritised as one of the main pillars/ areas for campaign for urgent change.

@ClearMountain

I was told verbally that my employer couldn’t accommodate my pregnancy because they couldn’t afford it. It would cost money to cover my time off etc. So I complained and got a solicitor. Obviously they said I’d got the wrong end of the stick and the reason my rolling contract was not being renewed was because there was less work available. They got away with it.

@ClearMountainThe thing is that the Government pays your maternity leave if they are paying statutory - companies have no legal obligation to pay you any more than statutory and the Government reimburses 103% for small companies

[quote MagentaZebras]@JoeliBrearleyGuestPost we all appreciate the work you're doing. However I'd argue the financial discrimination is a HUGE factor in the struggles of single parents and should be prioritised as one of the main pillars/ areas for campaign for urgent change. [/quote]
@MagentaZebras I totally and wholly agree - Gingerbread do prioritise this and campaign on this area. They do an excellent job so we don't feel that we can add anything to their already brilliant work. It makes more sense for us to focus on areas where there are gaps that we can fill if you see what I mean

That law can be easily changed though too. For example one country I know which is very poor compared to the UK ('minimum wage £400 per month) pays maternity pay at full salary with no cap for 2 years minimum. Companies are legally required to do it, so they do.

My personal view is that none of this will change until women begin to all back a political party that prioritises these issues and refuse to vote for anybody who won't fix these problems for good. It can be done if 50% of the population demands that it is done.

@BlackRibboner

But I think a huge number of new mothers are less interested in career progression. Not forever, and not all, but anecdotally, I only know one other woman who is still looking for promotions or new jobs with a child or children under five. All my other peers have said that motherhood has given them new priorities, that they're comfortable with their level, that they aren't interested in jumping through the hoops of application, interview etc.

Of course there are societal issues and gender roles at play here, but I struggle enormously with the balance between allowing these intelligent, happy women to know their own minds and priorities, and addressing the assumption that new mums are less interested in work. Because often, they are. It's a horribly vicious cycle.

@BlackRibboner of course some are less interested in career progression, as are some dads. But as you say, that doesn't detract from the fact that there are societal issues at play here - there are deeply entrenched gender stereotypes that mean women (and men) often don't have real choice, they prevent us from fulfilling our potential, and force us into roles that are not what we necessarily want. Ultimately that is bad for everyone. I say early on in the book about a poll I did on social media which asked stay at home mums if they wanted to work and 85% said yes. When I asked working mums if they wanted to quit their job, 53% said yes. We are unable to make genuine choices about work and parenting and that is a big problem for everyone.

@MagentaZebras

My personal view is that none of this will change until women begin to all back a political party that prioritises these issues and refuse to vote for anybody who won't fix these problems for good. It can be done if 50% of the population demands that it is done.

@MagentaZebrasabsolutely - that political party would be the Women's Equality Party