Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Guest posts

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Amnesty's proposal to legalise prostitution is wrong - we can't let men who exploit women off the hook

693 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 29/01/2014 19:31

An Amnesty International document leaked this week argues for the legalisation of prostitution. It says that approaches like the Swedish Model – which criminalise buying sex, but legalise selling it – are guilty of "devaluing" prostituted women and "criminalising the contexts in which they live". In essence, the proposals say that most women who become prostitutes make a rational, informed choice – effectively , that they enter into a relationship of equals with the men who purchase their bodies.

I’m really disappointed in Amnesty. I'm a long term supporter of the Swedish Model and, for me, the idea that we should simply accept prostitution as a fact of life is totally wrong. It is particularly irresponsible at a time when it's being reported that austerity is driving many women – and in particular single parents – into prostitution.

I believe Amnesty have got it wrong. Firstly, I don’t believe prostitution is, in most cases, "consensual sex between adults", as the policy document describes it. The idea that women who go into prostitution are exercising 'free choice' just doesn’t stack up. Abuse and lack of alternatives are almost always a factor - many enter the sex trade young, and come from backgrounds fraught with suffering and abuse. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but, all things being equal, I believe most women don’t 'choose', in the true sense, to become prostitutes.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea there can be any real equality between a woman who sells her body and a man who buys it. As Amnesty admits, the conditions of the sex trade are "imperfect" to say the least. British 'prostitute review' sites like 'Punternet' – as well as the male-led 'Hands off my whore' campaign in France – show what so-called clients think of the women they buy sex from.

A large proportion of prostitutes say they experience aggression while working, and nearly seven in ten suffer the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. The dynamic between buyers and sellers of sex ranges from the disrespectful to the downright abusive – but there’s almost always an inequality at play.

Of course, there'll always be some who say that prostitution is "the oldest trade" and that there's not much we can do about it. But this argument is as untrue as it’s depressing. In Sweden, for example, stopping the purchase of sex changes social attitudes, making men less likely to purchase sex and more likely to support prosecutions for others - and there’s no reason why this can’t happen in the UK. Amnesty need to aim much higher. We can do better, surely, than just make the exploitation of women better regulated.

The role of charities like Amnesty should be to lift standards up, not drive them down. Amnesty are supposed to be an ambitious organisation. They shouldn’t just shrug their shoulders and say "c’est la vie". Over the years they've done an indispensable job in ending exploitation, improving human rights, and reducing inequalities. Legalising prostitution runs counter to all these things. It has turned Germany into a "giant Teutonic brothel", as the Economist puts it - and, according to Equality Now, has "empowered pimps and traffickers" in Amsterdam.

Women at risk or in economic need require more opportunities and better protection – not to be told their only option is a demeaning last resort. For the sake of women and mothers everywhere I sincerely hope Amnesty will rethink their position.

OP posts:
rhinoceer · 02/02/2014 00:57

Do you think Melissa Farley is a credible source?

WhentheRed · 02/02/2014 01:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Beachcomber · 02/02/2014 02:12

Melissa Farley is ace.

m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=%2F#/home

Still avoiding the simple straightforward question posed to you several times on this thread I see rhinoceer. Don't you deign to answer mere women?

NumptyNameChange · 02/02/2014 06:45

just to add my voice saying i'd be interested to hear what rhinoceer's involvement in the profiteering from prostituting women is.

my interest in this topic stems from being a woman, being a member of the group impacted by such legislation and the damage living life in a world that thinks of women as bodies to be fucked and bought and sold in the name of men's rights and liberties has upon mine and all women's lives.

what's yours rhino?

Beachcomber · 02/02/2014 09:41

Oh sorry link fail. Will repost later on pc.

CaptChaos · 02/02/2014 11:12

Do you think Melissa Farley is a credible source?

Yes, I do, for the manifold reasons you have already been given, and from my own research prompted by reading the posts of far better informed people than myself.

Now, back to you. Can you answer a straight and reasonable question? I did, it was pretty straightforward.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/02/2014 11:45

The pro-prostitution lobbyists, the pimps, those who seek to profit from the selling of women's bodies will always seek to make the sex industry bigger and more socially acceptable - that's why they campaign relentlessly for legalisation across the board. They can make more profit, more easily.

Melissa Farley's research demonstrating the exploitation and damage of prostitution/trafficking to women/children is very inconvenient for them, because prostitution/trafficking has been shown to increase in states where prostitution is legalised.

The sex-worker advocates profiteers want everyone to forget all about the most vulnerable people whose plight Melissa Farley is trying to highlight: trafficked, destitute, drug addicted and abused women and children. These most vulnerable are barely even mentioned by any red umbrella "let-us-work" type 'advocacy' who would rather law-makers and campaign groups like AI buy into the happy hooker "it's a human right to buy or sell sex" myth.

Legalisation does not make life for prostitutes any better - it increases legitimacy of it, and in turn, demand for women to pay for sex. This increase in demand is met by.....Trafficked women.

WhentheRed · 02/02/2014 16:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/02/2014 16:42

I take your point, Red, I agree. The pimps and lobbyists are not about giving prostitutes any actual employment rights, or filling out tax returns, as someone pointed out upthread. They just want to be left alone to profit from an expanding sex industry. It's all smoke and mirrors.

The AI are, seemingly, the latest to be taken in by it.

GoshAnneGorilla · 02/02/2014 16:47

WhentheRed is spot on, it is absolutely laughable that people can trumpet "letting the market regulate itself" as in any way being pro worker's rights, but that's exactly what they are doing.

WhentheRed · 02/02/2014 17:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rhinoceer · 02/02/2014 18:57

I don't find her so credible. Yet almost every anti sex-work blog or article uses her as a source. She is possibly the #1 source of information when it comes to advocating the "Nordic model".

plri.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/here-comes-the-judge-justice-himel-on-farley-and-raymond/

" I found the evidence of Dr. Melissa Farley to be problematic. Although Dr. Farley has conducted a great deal of research on prostitution, her advocacy appears to have permeated her opinions. For example, Dr. Farley’s unqualified assertion in her affidavit that prostitution is inherently violent appears to contradict her own findings that prostitutes who work from indoor locations generally experience less violence. Furthermore, in her affidavit, she failed to
qualify her opinion regarding the causal relationship between post-traumatic stress disorder and prostitution, namely that it could be caused by events unrelated to prostitution.

Dr. Farley’s choice of language is at times inflammatory and detracts from her conclusions. For example, comments such as, “prostitution is to the community what incest is to the family,” and “just as pedophiles justify sexual assault of children….men who use prostitutes develop elaborate cognitive schemes to justify purchase and use of women” make her opinions less persuasive.

Dr. Farley stated during cross-examination that some of her opinions on prostitution were formed prior to her research, including, “that prostitution is a terrible harm to women, that prostitution is abusive in its very nature, and that prostitution amounts to men paying a woman for the right to rape her.”

Accordingly, for these reasons, I assign less weight to Dr. Farley’s evidence"
-

For years she also had a list of rape "jokes" on her website. She removed them sometime last year after they came to the attention of many sex workers.

arroganciadajuventude.net/?p=1700

LineRunner · 02/02/2014 19:57

'Less violence' is still violence.

CaptChaos · 02/02/2014 20:09

rhinoceer

Nice C&P there.... in fact, I think we might have met before, although your formatting is better now.

Are you toying with answering the question posed to you a while back? You know the one? Or would you just like to hide behind some very poor research again?

DonkeySkin · 02/02/2014 20:22

Exactly, LineRunner. Her opinion that prostitution is inherently violent is belied by the fact that in some situations the violence is more extreme?

Also: Furthermore, in her affidavit, she failed to qualify her opinion regarding the causal relationship between post-traumatic stress disorder and prostitution, namely that it could be caused by events unrelated to prostitution.

Confused

It could be caused by events unrelated to a 'job' characterised by constant violence and the threat of violence, from which you have few if any avenues of escape?

Neither of these comments discredits Farley's conclusions - they seem rather to indicate a wilful obtuseness on the part of the judge.

DonkeySkin · 02/02/2014 20:41

I mean, when researchers present stats on the rates of PTSD in combat veterans, do people say to them: 'These findings are invalid, because you haven't qualified that the PTSD could have been caused by events unrelated to being in combat?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 02/02/2014 20:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Beachcomber · 02/02/2014 21:17

Rhinoceer, those comments don't discredit Farley's work. They are opinions about her position.

In your opinion, is having sex for money a job like any other?

Beachcomber · 02/02/2014 21:23

And that other link is pathetic. Of course Melissa Farley doesn't think gang rape is funny. How foul.

Rhinoceer do you know what critical thinking is?

rhinoceer · 02/02/2014 21:36

There is also violence in marriage. Would the solution be to criminalize marriage? Or how about just criminalizing the people who propose marriage?

If Farley cares so much about the women in prostitution why would she publish these? See link

www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/Porn/WhyIMade.html

This coming from someone whose research is quoted so often.

LineRunner · 02/02/2014 21:41

Cricket, Rhino, talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel for arguments.

LineRunner · 02/02/2014 21:41

Cricket? That was meant to be one of my favourite words, 'Crikey'!

rhinoceer · 02/02/2014 21:43

"4. I like getting fucked by the football team, the fraternity brothers, and law students at graduation parties. I realized that gang rape could be a transcendental experience."

Hilarious. Ever so fucking hilarious.

rhinoceer · 02/02/2014 21:44

What a foul mind that foul woman must have to type things like that and publish it.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 02/02/2014 21:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.