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Amnesty's proposal to legalise prostitution is wrong - we can't let men who exploit women off the hook

693 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 29/01/2014 19:31

An Amnesty International document leaked this week argues for the legalisation of prostitution. It says that approaches like the Swedish Model – which criminalise buying sex, but legalise selling it – are guilty of "devaluing" prostituted women and "criminalising the contexts in which they live". In essence, the proposals say that most women who become prostitutes make a rational, informed choice – effectively , that they enter into a relationship of equals with the men who purchase their bodies.

I’m really disappointed in Amnesty. I'm a long term supporter of the Swedish Model and, for me, the idea that we should simply accept prostitution as a fact of life is totally wrong. It is particularly irresponsible at a time when it's being reported that austerity is driving many women – and in particular single parents – into prostitution.

I believe Amnesty have got it wrong. Firstly, I don’t believe prostitution is, in most cases, "consensual sex between adults", as the policy document describes it. The idea that women who go into prostitution are exercising 'free choice' just doesn’t stack up. Abuse and lack of alternatives are almost always a factor - many enter the sex trade young, and come from backgrounds fraught with suffering and abuse. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but, all things being equal, I believe most women don’t 'choose', in the true sense, to become prostitutes.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea there can be any real equality between a woman who sells her body and a man who buys it. As Amnesty admits, the conditions of the sex trade are "imperfect" to say the least. British 'prostitute review' sites like 'Punternet' – as well as the male-led 'Hands off my whore' campaign in France – show what so-called clients think of the women they buy sex from.

A large proportion of prostitutes say they experience aggression while working, and nearly seven in ten suffer the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. The dynamic between buyers and sellers of sex ranges from the disrespectful to the downright abusive – but there’s almost always an inequality at play.

Of course, there'll always be some who say that prostitution is "the oldest trade" and that there's not much we can do about it. But this argument is as untrue as it’s depressing. In Sweden, for example, stopping the purchase of sex changes social attitudes, making men less likely to purchase sex and more likely to support prosecutions for others - and there’s no reason why this can’t happen in the UK. Amnesty need to aim much higher. We can do better, surely, than just make the exploitation of women better regulated.

The role of charities like Amnesty should be to lift standards up, not drive them down. Amnesty are supposed to be an ambitious organisation. They shouldn’t just shrug their shoulders and say "c’est la vie". Over the years they've done an indispensable job in ending exploitation, improving human rights, and reducing inequalities. Legalising prostitution runs counter to all these things. It has turned Germany into a "giant Teutonic brothel", as the Economist puts it - and, according to Equality Now, has "empowered pimps and traffickers" in Amsterdam.

Women at risk or in economic need require more opportunities and better protection – not to be told their only option is a demeaning last resort. For the sake of women and mothers everywhere I sincerely hope Amnesty will rethink their position.

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 31/01/2014 18:35

What I also find appalling is AI's co-opting of disabled men to justify prostitution

So true WhentheRed. We are used to seeing this from pimp lobbies and punters, but to see AI coming out with the same ableist + misogynistic twaddle is appalling.

Meanwhile they ignore the massively gendered nature of the whole sorry subject as they wax lyrical about disabled men's persons right to pay to rape express their sexuality. It is ghastly and so blatantly an appropriation of disabled people's sexuality, in order to push an agenda. How dare they.

Beachcomber · 31/01/2014 18:39

rhinoceer - you have been asked a direct question upthread. I don't think I'm alone in wanting to hear your answer to it.

I doubt many of us will feel inclined to answer your questions if you ignore questions you are asked.

In your own time...

rhinoceer · 31/01/2014 18:40

The Swedish model didn't do any favours for Swedish sex worker Petite Jasmine who was not long ago murdered by her ex. She reported his abusive behaviour to police but all the police were interested in was the fact she was a sex worker. Her kids were taken off her and given to him, and then he ended up killing her.

So much for not stigmatizing sex workers. Have their kids taken off them and ignored if they report an abusive partner.

Plenty links can be found on her with a quick Google search.

grimbletart · 31/01/2014 18:40

Yes Rhino: please answer my question. Thank you.

rhinoceer · 31/01/2014 18:43

Well does anyone else think unemployed women (or men) should be told to work in the sex industry or lose employment benefits?

Having sex (regardless if for payment or not) should be a choice one makes themself.

Beachcomber · 31/01/2014 18:46

rhinoceer - the request was that you answer the question. Not evade it.

rhinoceer · 31/01/2014 18:51

I answered it. Noone should be expected to work in the sex industry to avoid losing benefits (unless the person looking for work specifically requested such a job).

Having sex (regardless if for payment or not) should be a choice one makes themself.

WhentheRed · 31/01/2014 18:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 31/01/2014 19:10

I'd like rhinoceer to answer that too.

beatricequimby · 31/01/2014 19:15

Thanks for this Mary. I am completely appalled by Amnesty, and feel very let down. I am a long-term Amnesty supporter - I used to run a school group and had been thinking of doing it again. This has totally put me off.

WhentheRed · 31/01/2014 19:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

horsetowater · 31/01/2014 19:23

If a person can lose benefits by turning down a job stacking shelves, why should a person not lose benefits by turning down a job in prostitution?

Exactly why it should not be decriminalised. There would be stands at careers fairs for school leavers too. Little girls would be able proudly to stand up in class and say "I want to be a prostitute when I grow up" because their mother is one too and has set a good example.

Hmm
horsetowater · 31/01/2014 19:25

Is there a petition against this anywhere?

rhinoceer · 31/01/2014 19:27

If one chooses to sell sexual services for payment, it is a job yes. It is work.

And my Q above wasn't answered. If you succeed in reducing the client base of sex workers are you going to give them the money they would miss out on from bookings?

rhinoceer · 31/01/2014 19:28

Buying and selling of sex is already legal in the UK (under certain circumstances) and there aren't any sex industry stands at career fairs. That straw argument isn't valid.

FloraFox · 31/01/2014 19:31

rhino you're eating your tail here. Either it's a job and people should be required to do it or lose benefits or there's something fundamentally different between having sex and doing a job. Try to approach this logically.

rhinoceer · 31/01/2014 19:36

I've answered the Q. Do you want to answer mine?

FloraFox · 31/01/2014 19:43

Yes, you've made it clear that sex is not a job like any other, not work. Something completely different. Stop lying and calling it work.

WhentheRed · 31/01/2014 19:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rhinoceer · 31/01/2014 19:53

How classy accusing people of lying.

IMO Sex work is work. If it's between consenting adults it is not rape and noone should be jailed.

This is my Q:

If you succeed in reducing the client base of sex workers are you going to give them the money they would miss out on from bookings?

FloraFox · 31/01/2014 20:03

Who do you mean by "sex workers"?

WhentheRed · 31/01/2014 20:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Beachcomber · 31/01/2014 21:22

rhinoceer, I'm afraid you aren't making yourself clear.

Is what you term 'sex work', a job like any other?

Yes or no.

Is having sex for money the same as waiting tables for money or fixing people's teeth for money or building houses for money, etc?

It is a simple question.

The question is not 'do you think having sex for money is work?'.

The question is; is having sex for money a job like any other? C'mon, stop being evasive and own your opinion. Or express another one.

Yes or no will do.

Beachcomber · 31/01/2014 22:07

For anyone interested in more detail in the German story that rhinoceer seems to be avoiding stating his position on. From the section 'Prostitution as Work'.

www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/demand_for_victims.pdf

In Germany, since prostitution and brothels were legalized at the beginning of 2002, prostitution is officially viewed as work. Prostitutes are entitled to employment benefits and expected to pay taxes. Since prostitution is officially a legal job, brothel owners assumed they have a right to recruit new women by advertising their job opening in the German job advertising centers, and the right to access job seekers’ databases to look for suitable women.
The Federal Labor Office made a decision not to display brothel vacancies in the job centers, and the job centers would not assist exploiters to find women for prostitution. The office also said that it would not offer prostitution or stripping jobs to women who hadn’t specifically mentioned them as a type of job they were willing to do.

A brothel owner challenged this decision saying:
“Why shouldn’t they send the unemployed to work in the sex industry? …I was always looking for workers… …now employees are insured and receive benefits. People would no longer be unemployed and could earn themselves a living.”

In 2003, the owner of a newly opened brothel in Goerlitz, Germany, tried to place job advertisements for “hostesses for erotic services.” The German Federal Labor Office rejected the ads. The brothel owner said: “If the state says the women can work, I expect the authorities to do their part for me in return.” He said his efforts to recruit women by
placing ads in the newspapers had failed. He claimed that he had men offering to help him staff his brothel by “selling” him women. Yet, he thought it was wrong for the Labor Office to refuse his advertisements on “moral” grounds, especially since there was high unemployment and the government had a budget deficit. A member of the Bundestag from the liberal Free Democrats, Marita Sehn, supported the advertisements saying that the government was hurting unemployed women in the depressed areas in the east of the country by not printing the ads.

This debate about whether brothel keepers can recruit women through official employment agencies focuses on how involved the government should be in assisting exploiters to recruit women for their establishments. In other area of labor policy in which the government is trying to reduce unemployment and promote job training, the Bundestag passed a law that will fine companies that fail to hire at least one apprentice for each 15 workers. No provision was made to exempt brothels from financial penalties if they too didn’t hire “apprentices.”

rhinoceer · 31/01/2014 22:08

"Who do you mean by "sex workers"?"

To use another term, prostitutes.

"I would like a full adoption of the Swedish model which provides social assistance to those currently in prostitution."

You do realize trying to hunt down all clients costs money and resources? And in Sweden this has actually taken money away from social work.

Of course there is no reason why we can't give social assistance to anyone in the industry who wants it and also keep buying and selling legal.

www.hivlawcommission.org/resources/report/FinalReport-Risks,Rights&Health-EN.pdf
quote from page 38:

"Sweden’s Alliance of Counties says that resources for social work are scarce, as the money has been siphoned to policing."